What might be an appropriate recoil spring for a Les Baer 1911 Premiere II, shooting light bullseye rounds?

First topic message reminder :

Before I knew anything about this forum and Bullseye shooting, my 1911 handgun was a Colt Combat Commander.  After spending forever trying to get that gun to shoot well, or for that matter, find anyone else who could shoot it well, I gave up and it was sent off to Colt.  About a year and a half later, it came back with a beautiful test target, and I felt it was capable of being used for Bullseye Shooting.  A lot of parts were replaced, and a better rear sight was installed.  By then, I had joined the shooting club at my range, and started shooting "real" bullseye, at 15 yards, two-handed.

In the meantime the treasurer at my club found me a Les Baer Premiere II that had just been repaired (the previous owner created a bulged barrel).  He got the gun back, and I bought it.  I could go through the whole story of this gun, but let me jump ahead to my question.

I now am shooting 1911's ONLY for Bullseye - I've got my Salyer Caspian, and my Salyer Springfield.  Both now shoot my reloads, 3.8 grains of WST over a Magnus #801 bullet.  They shoot very "lightly", minimal recoil, and both guns are now enjoyable for me to shoot, nothing at all like shooting Winchester White Box 230 grain ammo.  (I can still shoot that ammo in my Colt if I wish to.)


The gun originally came with a 18# recoil spring.  I got permission from the lady at Baer who seems to know everything about Baer guns, to replace the 18# spring with 16# spring.  Nowadays, the gun is mostly sitting.  I used it with a Nelson kit for a while, but I see no reason not to put in an appropriate recoil spring and shoot the same ammo I'm currently reloading for my other guns.

This leads to my question - I'm constantly hearing about a 10# spring being good for a wad gun shooting light loads.  Is there any reason why this wouldn't be an appropriate spring for me to install?  Obviously, if I shoot heavier loads, I'll change the spring.  

One of the things I'm considering is that this gun has the stock steel sights.  My other two 1911 guns have optics.  The Caspian has a very heavy slide, and the Springfield has a more "normal" slide.  

Is it safe to install the 10# spring, see how the gun works, and if there are any issues, to consider a different spring?  
I would need to verify that the slide locks back on the last round.  
It would be interesting to see how many feet from me the gun throws the empty cases.

Baer’s explanation that a variable power spring unlocks easier is why you do not want one for bullseye. We are already using low power springs because of low power loads, and a gun that unlocks too quickly increases felt recoil. Jon Eulette may want to chime in here, but I believe the way he fits barrels is in part due to the need for the barrel to remain in lockup longer.

I thought that I was trying to eliminate as many variables as possible from the process.

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:I thought that I was trying to eliminate as many variables as possible from the process.

I appreciate that - too many variables and the process gets that much more confusing.

I think that right now, I'm more interested in understanding everything, than I am in  the process.  For the process I just drop in a medium strength spring, and unless the gun fails to function, I'll probably be OK, but I always figure the more I understand, the better.  I'm more so asking "why", rather than "what".  

(If I was more sensible, I'd just ask "what", do it, and. be done with it.  That's a "problem" I've had for my whole life.  Sorry......)

Dr.Don wrote:Baer’s explanation that a variable power spring unlocks easier is why you do not want one for bullseye. We are already using low power springs because of low power loads, and a gun that unlocks too quickly increases felt recoil. Jon Eulette may want to chime in here, but I believe the way he fits barrels is in part due to the need for the barrel to remain in lockup longer.

I'll obviously trust Jon's answer about this more so than Les' answer, as Jon's will be specifically for Bullseye.  

Is the only disadvantage that you see, that it might increase felt recoil?  In terms of how well the gun shoots, is there a benefit in how long or short a time the barrel remains "locked"?

Not knowing diddly about this, I assumed that the variable spring would be to give a lighter spring for shooting, but a heavier spring for when the slide is almost all the way back, minimizing potential damage.  Is this correct?

Yeah, one more variable.......     :-(



Oops, when Les told me that, I forgot that I had already asked this in the forum, and was told the variable rate springs aren't useful for Bullseye.
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t12703-variable-rate-recoil-spring

mikemyers wrote:Oops, when Les told me that, I forgot that I had already asked this in the forum, and was told the variable rate springs aren't useful for Bullseye.
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t12703-variable-rate-recoil-spring

I was just going to post that link to remind you that you had already been through all of that.

“Go ask Alice, I think she’ll know”

How far down goes this rabbit hole.

Jim, I think we're at the bottom now.

Oh, no...it’s much deeper...

You want deeper?

I was talking to Terry at Magnus earlier today - he said shooters need to be concerned with the temperature too.  If it gets cold, the powder has less power, so that needs to be taken into account.
Terry also says using standard springs or variable isn't a big deal.  The last springs he got were variable.

I did ask Terry about the speed of the #801 bullet, using 3.8 WST.  He estimates the speed at 750 fps.  Power factor is therefore 139,000.
That being the case, here are Wilson's specifications for standard springs:
       https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Conventional-Recoil-Springs/products/577/

13# spring -- power factor 130,000 to 150,000
15# spring -- power factor 140,000 to 165,000
16# spring -- power factor 145,000 to 170,000


I suspect the hole is deep enough already.
I've got more than enough answers.   

Now fill it in!

Jim, I did get the answers I was after, and a whole lot more.  

During the process, I think I dug too deep a hole.  Maybe this would work better to close it:

My springfield milspec with a slide mounted red dot that was originally done by Dave Salyer and since tuned again by another smith has a 9 or 10 pound recoil spring, I usually shoot a 185 grain Bayou bullet lead swc with 3.7-3.8 grains of Bulleye.  The comment about weather is something to consider, I shoot in the SF bayarea and the temp at the range is rarely below 50 or about 80 so if your in a cold climate that could make a difference.  This info and 5 bucks will get you a overpriced coffee drink at Starbucks.

troystaten wrote:..............so if your in a cold climate that could make a difference.........

That's what Terry was telling me about some of the matches he goes to.  I didn't get to ask him what he does to compensate for the low temperature.  I don't expect Miami to ever have that problem, maybe the opposite, which the temp gets up near 100.

But we're not thought to the other side... yet!

Let me point out for example, you did not mention asking Les about the mainspring weight...

And as you know from the different behavior of your two pistols, individual fit and tolerances can make an impact too.

At the end of the day, how does the pistol function, feel and perform (accuracy)?

I often have students who overthink things and I sometimes tell them (apologies in advance, Mike), "You're mind-f@&!ing this to death!"  Do you really need to understand every aspect of how your car runs, or do you accept it and simply drive the thing?

Best of intent, even if that sounded harsh.

Aprilian wrote:I often have students who overthink things and I sometimes tell them (apologies in advance, Mike), "You're mind-f@&!ing this to death!"  Do you really need to understand every aspect of how your car runs, or do you accept it and simply drive the thing?

I would ask you what you mean by "need".  Maybe a better word would be "want".

To me, if I "want" to shoot targets like many people here do, I "need" to understand what goes into achieving that.

I'm 75, and retired, and have lots of free time.  When it comes to shooting (including Bullseye) all that stuff I learn here is useful.  I'm never going to be any kind of "champion", but for me, "understanding" almost always leads to improved performance, at most things I do.  I don't "need" to clean a target, but I sure "want" to do so.



Never mind the answer to my original question....... What I've learned about springs from what has happened here in the past week or so, to my way of thinking, is good to both know, and to understand.  Nope, no "need" for that.

Same thing for my Nikon D750 camera.  I could just pick it up, select "AUTO", press the button, and get a good photograph.  But learning ALL the controls and menus and sub-menus, and understanding how that information can be useful, enables me to get a much better photograph.  Still, no matter how good I get, I'll never be able to get photos like Ansel Adams created, both because I don't "see" things as he did, and because I don't know how to do all the things he did to manipulate the image to create the photo he saw in his mind.

I was born that way - I "overthink" everything.  I see things, and rather than look at what they're doing, I try to figure out how they work.  Can't help it.

After all of this discussion, which answer did you determine to be correct?

suggested next topic.

CRIMP

james r chapman wrote:suggested next topic.

CRIMP

Ain’t that the truth!  As we learned today...I’ll make a new topic

DA/SA wrote:After all of this discussion, which answer did you determine to be correct?

I don't think "correct" is the right word, but 16# and 14# are now where I plan to start.  
Based on responses here, as 'droning' suggested, 14# would be what I'd try first, but Dave Sayer asked me to try it with the 16# spring that was already in the gun.
If the gun doesn't lock back, go softer and try again.  Repeat as needed.
The sweet spot apparently is if the gun is thrown empties three to four feet.
I'll get to test this out the week after this coming week.

Aprilian wrote:.........I often have students who overthink things and I sometimes tell them (apologies in advance, Mike), "You're mind-f@&!ing this to death!"  Do you really need to understand every aspect of how your car runs, or do you accept it and simply drive the thing?..........

The world has changed, and I haven't.  I'm stuck in the past.
To me, knowing and understanding these things is just part of learning hot to be a Bullseye Shooter.
Go back lots of years, and read "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury".  They get far, far, far deeper into understanding these things that I ever will.

............and regarding the analogy, that's probably true now, but way back when if I didn't understand and know how to work on my car, I'd have been in trouble numerous times.  Life has changed........  I don't think I have.  This cartoon is what we have to look forward to.....

WOW
I have a Les Baer Prem.II,  My load is 3.8 n310 200 grn. coated bullet, I use a 14# spring with no issues. I shoot the gun wet.  
Jim

FYI, I have a monolith HW and a Concept III I use for ppc, I use 3.4 grains bullseye with a 200 missouri coated lswc no lube groove in both, the monolith uses a 13# flatwire spring, the concept III runs fine with 15#.  My Ed brown required a 13# spring with the same load as did my hand built Ithaca target gun and my springfield mil-spec I use for as issued matches.  ymmv

I might get to test it tomorrow; if not, it has to wait until this pesky Hurricane Dorian goes away.  

After all I read here, I'm pretty confident it will work fine.    ....the Baer, not Dorian.

jglenn21 wrote:10# is pretty typical for a wad gun using a slide mount dot.. I'd proabaly go with a 12-13 for normal lead loads with iron sights.. I run a 14 in my EIC 45 where I use lighter jacketed loads.  YMMV

The one Les puts in is an 11lbs progressive.  He manufactures them and the last time I bought some they were $4.00.  You will not get the same feel from a Wolf or other spring.  I tried them.