Lead Removal in .45acp 1911

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Post by watercam on 12/31/2019, 9:13 am

First topic message reminder :

Have not had this issue before but with a new gun I am seeing some leading in the throat area of my .45. Bore scope shows no tool marks in the affected part of the bore. In the past used the Lewis tool with success but in a match barrel I hesitate to use it. Worrying for nothing? Go chemical?
Thanks, Mike

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Post by messenger on 1/3/2020, 9:31 am

Sa-tevp wrote:Sometimes you run across useful containers for soaking barrels in while you clean and lube the rest of a 1911...


Lead Removal in .45acp 1911 - Page 2 3-oz-Manzanilla-Martini-Pimento-Olives

That's way too many martinis to get a barrel cleaning vesel. drunken

Bill

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Post by watercam on 1/3/2020, 12:44 pm

I don't know, it's pretty fouled. Now where is that sharpened Q-Tip...

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Post by Sa-tevp on 1/3/2020, 1:28 pm

Usually hobby shops and hardware stores have K&S Metal displays. The different brass stock can be cut and filed as safe scrapers.

www.ksmetals.com

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Post by watercam on 1/3/2020, 4:46 pm

Great! Thanks!

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Post by DA/SA on 1/4/2020, 3:50 pm

Jon Eulette wrote: Zero hbwc have leaded my 38's to the high heavens. I will never use those bullets again.
Jon
You made me look!

Just a data point...

I just looked after 300 rounds of Zero 148 HBWC with 2.9gr WST through my S&W 15 and zero leading. .3575" barrel bore (as best I can measure it) with 11° forcing cone and,  cylinder throats sized to .3585".

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Post by 30calfun on 1/6/2020, 9:04 am

I have leading in the throat of my 1911 45 also. I have tried the following and none of these suggestions has worked; 
Bronze Chore Boy wrapped around a 50 cal brush, 
soaking in Kroil for 24+ hrs 
soaking in Hoppes #9 for 4-5 days 
Bore Tech Rimfire Blend 
regular bronze brushing 
Lewis Lead Remover 
Remington paste product, Remingon 40X

The only thing that has somewhat worked is SharpShoot-R No Lead followed by SharpShoo-tR Patch Out. This has not removed all of the lead, but it takes some off with each application. 

I think I used some hard bullets and let it build up too much before getting it out. The gun is still accurate as the leading is only from the chamber to about an inch into the barrel. It sounds like the electrolyte method might be useful, though I am not sure how to construct one of these devices myself, any help here is appreciated. 

Thanks

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Post by jim lock on 1/6/2020, 9:10 am

What's the process using "chore boy"??
Thanks in advance
Jim

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Post by Rickhem on 1/6/2020, 9:36 am

Asa Yam wrote:
jglenn21 wrote:a bit unusual to see leading in a 45 unless the barrel throat is not correctly done.
Not true!

Alloy hardness affects melting point greatly.  Melting point usually falls as alloying elements are added.

Firing the round is a primary cause of leading:

  • Powder gas temperatures are around or above the melting point of most materials, and;
  • Chamber pressures are well above normal.  21,000 PSI for normal loads, 23,000 for +P. 

Materials which are solid at room temperature behave differently at elevated temperatures.  Change the pressure, and behaviors change more.  Keep in mind that even though peak temperatures and times are measured in fractions of a millisecond, it doesn't take much vaporized lead per shot to result in fouling buildup.  Cures to reducing or eliminating the buildup:

  • Change bullets to a softer type.  Remember, lower alloy content may mean a higher melting point;
  • Add an antifouling compound to the bullet or powder.  Older types of these compounds were added to the powder or primer.  They worked by reducing the ability of a fouling material to adhere to the barrel;
  • Add a physical barrier between the lead and the powder.  Reduce the temperature of the lead by adding a barrier between it and the powder gas.  Copper jackets, gas checks, and other barriers (i.e., plastic, paper, or cardboard wads; plastic jackets) are examples;
  • Add chemicals to reduce the ability of the powder to melt the lead.  Traditional means were adding waxes to the powder, modern types include wrapping powder charges in plastic jackets.  There is some thought that molybdenum disulfide ("moly") and tungsten disulfide ("Danzac") act as flame temperature reducers;
  • Change to a cooler burning power.  Lower burn temperature = less melting of bullet, and;
  • Reduce chamber pressure  Change from a fast burning, high temperature powder to a longer burning one with a lower flame temperature.

Having removed lead fouling from a pistol barrel, I cannot endorse using a Lewis lead remover.  Even after multiple passes, lead traces remain in the bore.  Electrochemical removal is far more effective - try it.  Clean the bore with a Lewis, then use a Foul-Out unit (or homemade equivalent).  The amount of material removed by an electrochemical system is an eye opener.  NOTE:  There are reports that aggressive use of an electrochemical system may result in pitted bores.  To avoid this, clean the barrel thoroughly using conventional cleaners, then electrochemically clean no more than twice.  Neutralize all remaining traces of the electrochemical solution, then lightly oil the bore to prevent rust.

Hi Asa,
Just curious as to what your opinion is to using the old Hydergen Peroxide/Vinegar solution method to help remove lead from a barrel.  I've used it frequently to clean the cylinder on my revolver, and while it sometimes takes two treatments to get all the lead out, it seems to work quite well without much added effort.  I've been told by others that it may cause damage to the steel itself, but I do not see any evidence of that.

Any thoughts on this?

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Post by David R on 1/6/2020, 9:47 am

jim lock wrote:What's the process using "chore boy"??
Thanks in advance
Jim
Buy a real chore boy.  The copper ones.  Check with a magnet.   

Pull off a piece of chore boy, wrap it around an old used junk bore brush.   Shove the brush in the bore.  Back and forth a few times.   Remove the brush and re wrap the copper.   Repeat.  It should work in a few times.  

I used to hang around the cast bullet board.  This is the best way by far to get lead out.  The copper can't hurt the bore and shaves the lead right out.   

I case my own for 20 years.  Leading was not a  problem if the bullet fits properly and is made properly.  If not.   Ut Oh!

I remember tying to load swaged Hornady swc to 357 velocity.   My first lesson in lead removal.  

Now a I use Brazos coated and have zero leading problems in any caliber.

David
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Post by Wobbley on 1/6/2020, 9:49 am

Hydrogen Peroxide in solution has free hydrogen ions.  These in contact with steel MAY lead to absorption of hydrogen gas in the steel which may be enough to cause hydrogen embrittlement.  Is it likely to happen?  Dunno, but the possibility is not zero.
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Post by jim lock on 1/6/2020, 12:35 pm

Thanks David-
Assuming this is done dry no liquids.
Jim

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Post by Asa Yam on 1/6/2020, 1:05 pm

Rick wrote:Just curious as to what your opinion is to using the old Hydergen Peroxide/Vinegar solution method to help remove lead from a barrel... I've been told by others that it may cause damage to the steel itself, but I do not see any evidence of that.

Any thoughts on this?
It's less convenient to mix the solution?  Hydrogen peroxide is light sensitive? Depending on their strength, the ingredients can dissolve your skin?  It's an attempt at making rocket fuel? (Joking on this one, but not by much...)  Seriously, in addition to what Ashley (Wobbley) said, vinegar is a fairly powerful acid.  The active ingredient in vinegar is acetic acid, which tends to form lead acetate when mixed with lead.  (Lead acetate is one of the compounds in Foul-Out lead removing solution.)  Good news is that is obviously works, just remember to oil the barrel when you're done to prevent rust.  Bad part about this mix is it is ONLY a chemical clean, and thus far less selective than electrochemistry.  Will it eat your barrel?  Probably, but hopefully it eats the lead faster than it consumes steel.

WARNING:  Electrolytic cleaners (and the hydrogen peroxide/vinegar solution) are active chemical mixes.  There is a reason there are warnings about health hazards on packaging for electrolytic cleaners.  New and used cleaners are considered "hazardous materials", and should not be disposed of by pouring them down the drain.

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Post by chopper on 1/6/2020, 1:55 pm

I've used the 50% mixture and with very good results, it turns the lead into a black residue easy to swab out. I usually used Chore Boy first then the mixture.
 I had it permanently stain a barrel, but that was because I forgot about it and left it in the jar of solution over 15mins. That barrel still shoots good, it just made it grey inside and out, After shooting a 2700 I cleaned that barrel and it was pristine and shiny.
 Also adjusted my load and went back to cast instead of swagged. Those swagged affected the first 1" of the barrel. Now I can just use Kroil and swab the lead out.
 Would I use the 50% solution again, only if I really-really had to, Hoppes 9 and Kroil get out all the carbon and lead for me.

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Post by Asa Yam on 1/6/2020, 9:07 pm

30calfun wrote:It sounds like the electrolyte method might be useful, though I am not sure how to construct one of these devices myself, any help here is appreciated.
Here is a link to a well-written document (with diagrams and pictures) on building an electrolytic cleaner, and mixing the cleaning solution: http://www.frfrogspad.com/copclean.pdf

This information was copyrighted by John Schaefer and published at www.frfrogspad.com/copclean.pdf, and is used here with his permission.

The Fr Frog page also has interesting information on other shooting related stuff.

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Post by watercam on 1/8/2020, 4:58 pm

Beyond Asa's fascinating chemistry posts I cleared the lead with, well, just about every method presented. Good, stiff, .45 bore brush covered with bronze wool dipped in Hoppe's #9 did the trick AFTER running a Lewis Tool through the bore 2-3 times. I guess I did not notice how early the leading was occurring as there was a fair amount. Accuracy never did fall off so I suppose I will worry less about that. Until...
Thanks for all of the tricks!

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