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Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire

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Post by xman 5/13/2021, 2:11 pm

I am considering going back to my Clark STC barrel to replace my OEM M41 5.5 barrel for various reasons too complex to get into detail right now.
 
I was using the Clark for a good long while but I was being put off of it as I was always needing to wipe off the oil splatter on the ocular lens from my needing to lube the top round in a mag to get the M41 to function. I did keep the oil to a minimum, just the lead bullet was oiled.

Another forum member suggested that I go to a ultradot style red dot and mount it so that the ocular lens is past the loading port so that the splatter does not land on the lens. The member also said that I could use just one mount to hold the ultra dot to the STC barrel top.

Other than the obvious sight configuration difference, is the through the lens experience much different? I see that another forum member makes shades for the ultradot. Does having or not having the shade impactful under certain circumstances?

I also have seen that the ultradot has a "flared" ocular portion. Is it solid or rubber?

I will not be around other shooters until maybe Saturday after next so I wont be able to take a look through an ultradot until then. Just trying to get some prelim info on the ultradot before I handle one and make the decision to buy or pass.

Any other pluses or minuses going for the ultradot?
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Post by CR10X 5/13/2021, 3:49 pm

Look in "Show Me Your Bullseye Pistol" sticky above.  Here's an example of how it would look mounted on the Clark STC barrel (overhang off the back like this 208s mount).  And, yes the "flair" on the end is rubber and only the 1 inch versions have these.

Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire June2610

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Post by mikemyers 5/13/2021, 5:43 pm

Between Ultradot 1", Matchdot II, their LT/1, Aimpoint, and the Vortex Venom, I think the 1" Ultradot is by far my favorite.  Go with the lighter, and lowest, mounting rings (which you can get from Amazon).  It comes with a polarizing filter, but all the did for me was to make the sight picture darker.
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Post by popchevy 5/13/2021, 10:05 pm

I really like the ultradot sights , the shade is nice for outdoor shooting but a lot of shooters in my group don't use em. I recently switched to a Matchdot and really like the bigger window. As always it's a personal choice. However, I would not be comfortable with only one mount on it though it may be fine that way. If you buy a new one , mounts come with it. Happy shooting !

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Post by mikemyers 5/14/2021, 7:19 am

Ultradot has suggestions as to where to locate the mounts, and where NOT to locate them.  Apparently it's more risky to mount them close to either end of the sight, where the optics are located.

Mounts do come with it - if anyone wants them, I'll give mine away.  I ordered these from Amazon - much nicer, lighter, lower, only two screws per cap, the locking adjustments seem to be holding - no loosening, yet, and for Leopold mounts, the price is very reasonable.  I didn't "discover" them - Dave Salyer pointed me to them.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DB986M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Post by Wes Lorenz 5/15/2021, 2:37 pm

man wrote:I am considering going back to my Clark STC barrel to replace my OEM M41 5.5 barrel for various reasons too complex to get into detail right now.
 
I was using the Clark for a good long while but I was being put off of it as I was always needing to wipe off the oil splatter on the ocular lens from my needing to lube the top round in a mag to get the M41 to function. I did keep the oil to a minimum, just the lead bullet was oiled.

Another forum member suggested that I go to a ultradot style red dot and mount it so that the ocular lens is past the loading port so that the splatter does not land on the lens. The member also said that I could use just one mount to hold the ultra dot to the STC barrel top.

Other than the obvious sight configuration difference, is the through the lens experience much different? I see that another forum member makes shades for the ultradot. Does having or not having the shade impactful under certain circumstances?

I also have seen that the ultradot has a "flared" ocular portion. Is it solid or rubber?

I will not be around other shooters until maybe Saturday after next so I wont be able to take a look through an ultradot until then. Just trying to get some prelim info on the ultradot before I handle one and make the decision to buy or pass.

Any other pluses or minuses going for the ultradot?
Here's mine with an Ultra dot on it using Burris Zee rings. No oil spatter problems and balance feels good to me. I had an H1 on it and didn't like it.

Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire Mdl_4110

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Post by mikemyers 5/15/2021, 3:09 pm

I stole my 1" Ultradot from the M41 to use on my High Standard, then I took off the Clark Barrel so I could try the original S&W 7" barrel.  I put the Clark back on an hour ago, and tried my Aimpoint Micro, which I didn't like - the dot moved too much, same problem as I had on my High Standard, which I corrected on that gun.  I've only got a 30mm Ultradot sitting around and my Aimpoint 9000SC - I mounted the 9000, and will see it I like that combination.  The 9000 is heavier than I prefer, but I didn't want to buy yet another 1" Ultradot right now.  As to using only one support ring, why would you want to do that?

I've never needed to put a drop of oil on the top round - tried it years ago, but didn't like it.  On your gun, what happens specifically if you don't use the oil?

I put the 9000SC as far back as I could, I wish it could be over my hands, but I can't do that.

Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire Img_4312
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Post by Froneck 5/15/2021, 6:31 pm

I have made quite a few "shades"/extensions for the Ultadots. The older models have the same thread on both sides, newer the ocular and objective sides are different. AMU uses extensions on the 9000 that extends past the muzzel to avoid the residue from the barrel, also helps with the rain at Camp Perry. I make them form either Delrin or Acrylic. Delrin is available in only Black or White. Acrylic can be clear or many colors. Plastic is light so it adds very little weight. I use both clear and black on my scopes. Clear works good for dark rainy days and Black for bright sunny days. I can make you an extension as long as you want it for the ocular (eye) side to fit the 9000.

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Post by Jack H 5/16/2021, 2:37 am

Here is a way to mount it rearward.
Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire IMG-0065

BTW
What is the weight designation of the pictured weight? 
It's off the gun now.
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Post by emmaus23 5/16/2021, 9:45 am

popchevy wrote:I really like the ultradot sights , the shade is nice for outdoor shooting but a lot of shooters in my group don't use em. I recently switched to a Matchdot and really like the bigger window. As always it's a personal choice. However, I would not be comfortable with only one mount on it though it may be fine that way. If you buy a new one , mounts come with it. Happy shooting !

Does the matchdot have "negative magnification" the same as the Ultradot II's do?

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Post by mikemyers 5/16/2021, 10:09 am

If you mean the one inch Ultradot, mine shows things "actual size".  
My Matchdot II sights make everything look slightly smaller - not good.
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Post by emmaus23 5/16/2021, 10:17 am

mikemyers wrote:If you mean the one inch Ultradot, mine shows things "actual size".  
My Matchdot II sights make everything look slightly smaller - not good.

Unfortunately the Ultradot II 1" I bought about a year ago has negative magnification. That and the apparent lack of warranty support (as reported by others) are unfortunate.

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Post by mikemyers 5/16/2021, 10:30 am

Oops, I was wrong.

Both my old 1" Ultradot and my new one show things "just slightly" smaller than what my other eye sees.  It's such a small difference that I never noticed it before, and it certainly never bothered me.  

On the other hand, things seen in my Matchdot II sights look very noticeably "smaller".  I find that annoying.

I still plan to buy another one inch Ultradot (and use the lightweight and low Leopold mounts from Amazon).
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Post by emmaus23 5/16/2021, 10:44 am

mikemyers wrote:Oops, I was wrong.

Both my old 1" Ultradot and my new one show things "just slightly" smaller than what my other eye sees.  It's such a small difference that I never noticed it before, and it certainly never bothered me.  

On the other hand, things seen in my Matchdot II sights look very noticeably "smaller".  I find that annoying.

I still plan to buy another one inch Ultradot (and use the lightweight and low Leopold mounts from Amazon).

The negative magnification is only a minor annoyance to me. I just recently ordered 2 more because I like everything else about them for Bullseye Shooting.

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Post by popchevy 5/16/2021, 1:09 pm

I have not noticed any negative magnification on my Matchdot. However , I am going to the range today to practice and will note that.

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Post by LenV 5/16/2021, 3:54 pm

You mentioned the crossfire. This or something like it is a good way to move scope back.Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire Screen36
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Post by xman 5/16/2021, 4:15 pm

LenV wrote:You mentioned the crossfire. This or something like it is a good way to move scope back.
LenV,

You know that looks PERFECT! Worthy of a try on my Clark STC before pulling the trigger on a Ultradot.

Will even let me keep oiling the bullet tip of the first round. Assuming I cant fix the FTEx by any other of the many methods that have been mentioned.

The Millett is made of steel, the others on Ebay are Aluminum. The Millett would likely bring the M41 with the Clark to nearly the same weight as the M41 with the OEM barrel. Weight is sometime I have to consider.

Thanks!!


Last edited by xman on 5/16/2021, 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added weight issue)
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Post by mikemyers 5/16/2021, 5:07 pm

Len, doesn't that defeat the goal of having the line of sight through the optics being as close as possible to the similar line through the bore?

If I knew then what I know now, I'd have bought the Clark Barrel with the rail extension to the rear.  Too late now - and as I recall, they didn't have any left when I called to order one several years ago.  All they had was the one I bought, with all that probably un-needed weight out front.
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Post by xman 5/16/2021, 5:59 pm

mikemyers wrote:Len, doesn't that defeat the goal of having the line of sight through the optics being as close as possible to the similar line through the bore?

If I knew then what I know now, I'd have bought the Clark Barrel with the rail extension to the rear.  Too late now - and as I recall, they didn't have any left when I called to order one several years ago.  All they had was the one I bought, with all that probably un-needed weight out front.
Mike:
It is kind of a trade off for me. Keep having to wipe the ocular lens of my Dot quite often during a match or just work with the Dot about another .5 inch. above the bore. Once sighted in, any error that might be induced by the added height is negligible. Based on what I know about optics, bore sighting, MOA impact variants cause by angular error caused by front/rear sight differences. As applied to Dot sights, (non tube) even less error is probable.
 
I have seen SB match rifle shooters having sights 1.5 inches and a whole lot more above the rifle bore. My SB silhouette rifle has the crosshair maybe 2.5 inches above the bore and shoots just fine. It keeps my head erect. My SB Hunter rifle has a more "conventional" scope height as per the rules as I recall.

LenV, feel free to add.
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Post by LenV 5/17/2021, 1:45 am

Feeling free to add. I don't like a scope mounted too high. If I can I go with low rings. That said I would never remove steel from the barrel or frame to mount a scope lower. In essence that is what Clark did. I don't own a Clark barrel so I can't make this measurement. What is the difference in height between a Clark with a riser and a factory with a rail? Bet they are close.
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Post by mikemyers 5/17/2021, 7:42 am

The top part of this image shows my Model 41 with the Clark Barrel, and the 1" Ultradot I bought from you.  That sight is now on my High Standard - not sure which gun it is going to stay on.  Top tagets are 25 yards, and the black powder target is at 15.  The mounts are the lowest 1" mounts I could find, Leopold Rifle Mounts, which Amazon sells for a very reasonable price.

Not sure how to give you the exact measurement you asked for, but I can measure the distance from the top of the Clark Barrel to the top of my slide if that would help.

Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire Img_4019
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Post by LenV 5/17/2021, 10:55 am

Unless you also have that riser you can't get that measurement.
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Post by mikemyers 5/17/2021, 11:53 am

What anyone (with a machine shop and the ability of Roddy Toyota) can do, machine the lower part of the rail, such that it has a minimum of space between the rail and the slide.  But this won't work on top of the Clark Barrel.  It's intended to right onto the barrel.  The bottom of the rail has to be shaped to drop down on the round barrel, where it would be screwed in place.  See second photo below.

I think the ideal answer for a Model 41 is to order one of these from Clark, which I should have done long ago:

Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire Screen94

Ultradot vs other "conventional dots" like Vortex Crossfire Img_4214
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Post by xman 5/17/2021, 12:35 pm

mikemyers wrote:The bottom of the rail has to be shaped to drop down on the round barrel, where it would be screwed in place.  
Weaver markets a rail #62 as the rail for M41s to add a scope or Dot. The rail bottom side is curved which would be for a round barrel application.

The tops of M41s are flat and thinly grooved (well mine is anyway) with holes drilled and tapped. The Weaver 62 has 4 drilled holes with 4 slots. It is made of aluminum and has served me well. It is at most 3/8th high.

I just bought online the rail extension/low riser for my Clark STC. I had to go with the aluminum as the all steel one is 8oz vs 3 oz.

Will see if the extension part ...placed over the open loading port with Dot installed messes up ejection. It should not as the opening will be larger than a regular OEM type M41 barrel. Will still be oiling the top round. Crossed fingers here.
 
FYI I have a brick of Blazer and a brick of Eley Club coming. Will do plunk test first ...then onto the range. If the Club is decent off a rest I will get a case.
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Post by Wobbley 5/17/2021, 1:06 pm

The Weaver 62 also fits a Remington 760.  EGW makes a Pic Rail mount that may have more options for mounting optics.

https://www.egwguns.com/scope-mounts-rings/standard-rifle-scope-mounts/?brand=760&model=593
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