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Allowed Positions RE: Sec. 5 et al

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Post by Corregidor 6/8/2021, 8:59 am

Never saw this before. NRA Approved 1800.

Competitor facing targets straight on, arched back on heels slightly. Right hand holding firearm. Left arm across chest, anchored in the vicinity of the right arm pit. It didn't appear that the left hand grasped the right upper arm but was instead grasping an area just below and to the rear of the right arm pit. For what it's worth shooter also had a right arm tennis elbow band (damn close to the elbow joint I might add).

No adaptive shooting card was presented. Nobody protested or otherwise questioned the competitor's stance.

While to me the stance appeared contrary to the spirit of the rules, I see nothing in Section 5 indicating it was an actual violation, particularly as the left hand appeared to grasp something other than the upper right arm.

I would like to hear other's thoughts.

Thank You.

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Post by Jack H 6/8/2021, 3:07 pm

If the rt upper arm could rest on the left hand, that would probably be a no-no.
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Post by Corregidor 6/8/2021, 3:51 pm

I've duplicated the stance as I recall seeing it several times. Yes, were the right upper arm resting on the left hand that would be further into the "Grey Area" however, I don't believe his upper right arm was resting on the left hand. Even so, would that combination violate the non shooting hand prohibition regarding "support the gun" as mentioned in Sec. 5.5 Firing Position? Maybe not.

I am having a hard time believing the stance was allowable, however I can't find a rule prohibiting it.

I welcome insight and opinions! I'm not trying to start a debate here... we'll likely host this competitor again in the future and I am truly interested in following the rules.

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Post by -TT- 6/8/2021, 4:34 pm

Was this shooter "holding" the scapula from in front of the ribcage? Or just kind of a one-arm hug on the ribcage itself? If you wanted to be strict, either could be considered to be lateral support. But pulling the scapula into position would increase support in both directions. I'm interested, because I tried a similar approach after shoulder surgery (though not in a match).

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Post by tierney 6/8/2021, 4:44 pm

Someone was removed from the range by a line officer 5 or 6 years ago at Perry for using this position

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Post by chopper 6/8/2021, 9:27 pm

I shot IDPA before Bullseye and if the MD had a one handed stage or off hand stage, most shooters would put their hand on their chest. Maybe that's where he learned it.
 Kind of funny thing happened when I shot a one hand stage at short pepper-poppers and put my hand in my pocket. When I finished that stage the timer said we don't shoot that NRA crap around here. I shot those 5 poppers and 5 headshots faster than everyone that day, and I used only 10 rounds.
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Post by Corregidor 6/9/2021, 9:11 am

I hadn't considered that he might be "holding the scapula" as mentioned by TT. The competitor appeared fit and trim and reaching all the way around and accomplishing this seems entirely possible. 

Were this the case I cannot help but believe the act was performed not by an attempt to gain advantage by breaking the rules - the stance was so blatantly odd and obvious -- but by ignorance of the rules (by all of us!).

I'm still curious however... if he was not "holding the scapula", in other words, were his non shooting left hand simply resting on his right side below his right arm, or grasping flesh below and to the rear of his right arm pit, is this stance allowable in the opinion of the group? Again I'm not asking as an academic exercise... we're likely to see this competitor again later this summer.

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Post by james r chapman 6/9/2021, 9:48 am

Originally police (and military) were taught to face target with the off hand across the heart and chest. Probably for protection.
I seem to have seen old (very) pictures of BE shooters doing this.
I only think this would be an issue if the arm or hand was wedged in such a way to lock the gun arm.
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Post by -TT- 6/9/2021, 9:54 am

I guess I'd ask him why he's using such an unconventional wraparound stance. Also I wonder if he holds a current competitor card. If he's ranked, it would certainly be something to discuss in the light of rules.

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Post by PhotoEscape 6/9/2021, 10:23 am

I am following this topic with great interest and attention............., because everything is pointing that I am at the center of the inquiry!  I am indeed standing parallel to the target, and more often than not hold my left arm across the chest.  I don't grasp anything with my left, and can easily hold it in the pocket (James R Chapman is correct in his assumption!) or somewhere else. I also wear band to aid alleviating pain from "shooter's elbow" (thank you Rob K!).  And in addition to the above I have pain in the shoulder (actually in both shoulders, as being ambidextrous I shoot with both arms, and started shooting BE with left because my left eye is better).  To complete the picture, my elbows hyper-extend beyond 180 degrees (and recoil goes straight into my shoulder).  Because of that NPOA is low towards 7 o'clock (it is funny to see HMs shooting my guns and printing nice groups at 1 o'clock!).  I'm using 7 degrees Rink's grips on 22s to aid with pushing NPOA towards right.  However with 1911 it didn't work, - I do not have sufficient control / grasp of the guns, and went back to slant grips.  So I have to mitigate with bending wrist (additional complication due to arthritis!).  I do push scapula back when rising gun, and try locking it to the best of my abilities, or I should say as much as pain in shoulder allows for, - some days are better than others.

I came about the stand I'm using through adjusting for elbow hyper-extension and shoulder pain.  It seam that with standing almost parallel I'm being least affected by both.  I've never knew that it might create controversy, and needless to say have no intention to violate any rules!  I appreciate timeliness of this tread, as I definitely don't want to be removed from the line at Perry or any other place in upcoming matches.

AP
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Post by Jack H 6/9/2021, 11:31 am

If the left fist is positioned in front pressing firmly below the rt collarbone, maybe pressing the rt shoulder towards that is possible.
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Post by Corregidor 6/9/2021, 11:59 am

AP/ PhotoEscape!

Please take no offense at this inquiry! As mentioned above nobody protested or questioned your stance at last Sunday's 1800 (I'm assuming it was you)!! There is no malice, ill will, or "finger pointing" whatsoever involved here.

I am interested in expanding the interest and involvement in Bullseye. We are thrilled you made the trip to the MFRGC Match; you and all others are welcome with open arms at all of our Matches! I am confident we can point to a resolution here that will facilitate and encourage your continued participation! Nothing would please me more.

Knowing a little more now, ordinarily I think the best recommendation might be to inquire with the NRA about an "Adaptive Position" Waiver? I'm told the NRA Competitions office currently is a staff of one. Thus, I doubt an official waiver (if needed) or even an answer to your question will arrive anytime soon. 

I do not know what, if any "Adaptive Position" Waivers may be available from the CMP or if one is even required. I would definitely consult with the CMP on this, however, if you intend to fire at Camp Perry next month and use the above-mentioned stance. It might head off any questions.

There are individuals on this list much more knowledgeable and experienced than me. It is my hope they chime in so you have the benefit of their advice!

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Post by -TT- 6/9/2021, 2:34 pm

AP, I feel for ya! If you're not pulling on anything, just holding your arm cross-chest, I'm of the opinion it's ok but I do agree a ruling would help. It's my understanding the certificate includes a photo of the shooter's approved stance, which would settle things pdq.

But I have a suggestion, you say you set your scapula "back". Have you tried the opposite, tightening the shoulder forward and down? In a flexion (straight-on) stance, you maybe don't want the shoulder to be to the back. It will impinge on your ability to get the upper arm in front, causing it to ride really high.

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Post by PhotoEscape 6/9/2021, 5:00 pm

Corregidor,
No worries, I take no offense at all.  I'm actually glad that you brought it up, as it would create precedent and start conversation with ruling authorities, either CMP and / or NRA.  I want to mention though, that I participated in several matches approved by one or another (including Camp Perry), and yet to have any issues.  And that includes match at MFRGC last year (I even got check from you last year Smile ).  BTW - I'm of opinion that you are one of the best in running matches.    

FWIW - I made conscientious effort not to shoot with my left arm across the chest today, and instead used it to make sure that my pants are pulled up Smile, - I held it across of my stomach holding belt on right side.  Coincidentally I shot my PB with 22, and did quite well shooting two wad guns.  However I didn't keep scores with either one, but there were targets with way better scores than I normally shoot.  So the question is, - if holding left arm as I did today (as opposed to across the chest) would eliminate any concerns?

-TT-

When I'm ready to raise gun (especially wadgun), I push shoulder up and I bend wrist up to mitigate elbow hyper-extention (witch immediately sends a jolt into my elbow, - you can try doing that while holding left arm finger next to elbow, and you will feel the direction of tendon extension).  I found this way to being least painful so far.  At this point I'm not up to changing.  However I'll make a note of your suggestion, and will try it in August - September.  Thank you.

AP
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