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Expanding Bullseye Matches to more of the USA

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Post by mikemyers 6/25/2021, 10:50 am

I don't think this is possible, but I will ask anyway.

I belong to the Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club - https://www.hrpclub.info

Long ago, the club used to host full 2700 matches, but apparently as time has gone by, shooters lost interest.  We still have bullseye matches once a month, but they are separated into two groups, the real "bullseye" group shooting at 50 and 25 yards one-handed, and the other group shooting at 25 and 15 yards, two-handed shooting permissible.  Each group scores themselves separately.  Bullseye shooters can shoot any legal Bullseye gun - most shoot 22, and the match becomes a 900, not 2700.

The club belongs to the NRA, and the CMP.  

This leads me to my question - if the club were to take all the scoring information from the "bullseye group" and submit it to the appropriate place, would those of us participating in it be able to get "classified" as others do?

I thought this would have been impossible, because we might have three to five shooters.  But then I see results from other clubs, where sometimes there are just as few shooters.  Actually, if our club matches became "real" bullseye matches, maybe more shooters would attend.  Right now, perhaps 35 people sign up for our matches.

If this is a "dead end street", I'll forget about it.  If it's plausible, I'd like to submit it to the club to consider for the future.
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Post by james r chapman 6/25/2021, 11:27 am

More likely the NRA Winchester NRA MARKSMANSHIP QUALIFICATION PROGRAM would be more appropriate for that group.
https://mqp.nra.org/
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Post by mikemyers 6/25/2021, 12:13 pm

Thank you Jim!!!!!

I had no idea such a thing existed, or I would have signed up years ago.  I guess I should have asked years ago.....

I went to the page, called and left a message, and sent an email as well.   Hopefully I'll get to hear back from them.

I'm not sure what to expect.  Hopefully I'll be able to shoot at the official targets, from the proper distances, in the allowed time, score my targets, and submit them.  If this works out, I need to let the people at my club know about the program - others may wish to do the same thing.

Again, THANK YOU!!
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Post by Wobbley 6/25/2021, 12:59 pm

If you get your monthly (real) bullseye match approved by CMP or NRA, the scores can then be submitted towards classification.
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Post by weber1b 6/25/2021, 1:41 pm

In so many cases, getting registered with the NRA, or the CMP simply takes one member to take the reins and make it happen. So many Bullseye groups are dependant on that one person who decides to take charge and others benefit. The challenge then can also be if that person moves on, is someone else willing to take up the mantle.

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Post by mikemyers 6/25/2021, 2:02 pm

Here is the email I just received from "Sheehan, Richard"

Hello,


Thank you for your interest in this fun, enriching and rewarding program! The NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program (MQP) is a self-administered, honor based, free program that gives new and experienced shooters an opportunity to build and hone valuable shooting skills.  Participants have 20 plus courses of fire to choose from. Within each course of fire, there are five levels of accomplishment which must be done in order: Pro Marksman, Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Distinguished Expert. The distinguished Expert is the Highest level available. Each shooter will participate using the material in our book and website and maintain record of their accomplishment for keepsake. Handy score sheets are provided for download on our website.  The shooter will then order his/her own award materials from our program material center.
 
Members who participate in this program and achieve the Distinguished Expert level may apply to the NRA for formal recognition of their accomplishment. Though the Distinguished Expert is available to all shooters, formal recognition of it by the NRA is a membership benefit--it's not open to non-members, unfortunately. As part of this recognition, the member applicant will be provided with a certificate, medal, additional pins, rockers and they will have their accomplishment published in the NRA Family Insights magazine. This is free since it's a membership benefit.
 
For a full explanation, a list of the courses of fire, all of the rules and regulations of the MQP program as well as downloadable forms, visithttps://mqp.nra.org/.
 
Thank you again for your interest in our MQP program. Enjoy!
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Post by mikemyers 6/25/2021, 2:22 pm

The above email led me here, to select a Course of Fire:

https://mqp.nra.org/courses-of-fire/


....and that led me here: 

  • Conventional Bullseye Pistol Qualification




....and that led me here:

     https://mqp.nra.org/media/8333/mqp-guide-book.pdf#page=12

So, supposedly I have a choice of trying for "Sharpshooter" or "Expert".

Now I need to find out how to get started.
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Post by mikemyers 6/25/2021, 4:13 pm

Added later - Richard wrote me that people doing this start at the beginning, so for Bullseye, it starts here:

     https://mqp.nra.org/media/8333/mqp-guide-book.pdf#page=12

He will be mailing me the "DE Handbook" which explains what to do.

(Hey, anyone else reading these forums as a "wall flower" (meaning not participating in matches), maybe you want to sign up and get involved!  Then your profile can include a genuine NRA Classification.
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Post by dapduh2 6/25/2021, 4:50 pm

Are there not any other ranges in driving distance for you to shoot a 2700?
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Post by Oleg G 6/25/2021, 5:59 pm

Mike,

I hate to perhaps dampen your enthusiasm, however, you should know that the NRA Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program has nothing to do with "real" NRA or CMP precision pistol classifications.
To be sure, it is a fun way to train and submit your scores to the NRA (and pay for the pins and chevrons they send you), however, the ratings from this program are not the same as the regular classification, which you can earn in sanctioned matches. The qualifying scores for the regular classifications are higher, and are, for the 300 / 900 / 2700 match:

Marksman - any score after 360 shots in qualifying matches
Sharpshooter - 85% or higher after 360 shots in qualifying matches (255 / 765 / 2295)
Expert - 90% or higher after 360 shots in qualifying matches (270 / 810 / 2430)
Master - 95% or higher after 360 shots in qualifying matches (285 / 855 / 2565)
High Master - 97% or higher after 360 shots in qualifying matches (291 / 873 / 2619)

You CAN  earn regular classifications in your club in two ways:
1. Organize your club matches, shot under regular rules (50 yards and 25 yards) into NRA approved or CMP approved matches
2. Organize an NRA league.

I have not done that and if I needed to start, I would reach out to Mary B, who runs the NJPistol website. Mary is a user here as well with the name noalibis.mary. If you have an interest in that, Mary will be the best possible resource to help you get this started at your club.

Best Regards,
Oleg.
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Post by james r chapman 6/25/2021, 8:02 pm

Not totally true.

If you set it up as a sanctioned league I believe the bullseye scores can indeed be used for classifications


Last edited by james r chapman on 6/25/2021, 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Corrected)
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Post by TonyH 6/25/2021, 8:09 pm

I’ll add to what Oleg G says above….get your club leagues or matches approved by the NRA or CMP, so shooters can get their classifications as he states above.
The same scores attained by shooters in the approved matches can also be tracked and used for the NRA Qualification program in parallel. The Qual program is designed to garner interest for shooters beginning to shoot BE, with awards and classifications at a lower level and much easier to achieve. The patches and rocker award system in the Qual can be administered by the person running the matches, and are well received by the folks participating.
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Post by mikemyers 6/25/2021, 11:17 pm

Oleg G wrote:........I hate to perhaps dampen your enthusiasm, however, you should know that the NRA Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program has nothing to do with "real" NRA or CMP precision pistol classifications.......
I just got an email from Dave Salyer saying the same thing.

I'll continue shooting at our regular club matches, and if I can get two more people to join me, we can have our own "real" bullseye match, one hand, 50 and 25 yards, shooting along with everyone else who will be shooting at 25 and 15 yards, two handed.  The next match date is this coming Sunday.  

I don't need all the NRAWinchester/Marksmanship "trinkets" - if their program is otherwise free, I might do it anyway, as additional practice.
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Post by james r chapman 6/26/2021, 6:47 am

The idea was to draw new shooters who like “trinkets”.
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Post by DA/SA 6/26/2021, 1:32 pm

dapduh2 wrote:Are there not any other ranges in driving distance for you to shoot a 2700?
I'm just North of West Palm Beach, FL, which is about an hour and a half North of Mike, and there are none that I am aware of.

If anyone knows of any in the area, I would be interested in knowing where.
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Post by mikemyers 6/26/2021, 3:44 pm

Dave Salyer pointed me here:

     Go to CMP competitions and register.

     https://thecmp.org/competitions/register-for-a-ct-number/

     I'm now registered - I think I'm supposed to find something for "Distinguished Pistol Shooters".

I'm lost, of course, but that's nothing new.  At least I have a "CT Number".

My family used to say something like "that, and fifteen cents, will get you into the subway" which is just showing my age - NYC subways were 15 cents back when I was a little kid.

Maybe eventually I'll figure out what all this stuff means.



To DA/SA - you can always come to HRPC and we, and perhaps a few more, could hold a real 900.  The right end of the pistol range is for the crowd that wants it easier, but the left end of the range is done according to real Bullseye rules.  We can even use the proper slow-fire targets, rather than the B-8 targets that the club hands out.
All the scoring at the Bullseye end of the range is done by Bullseye shooters only.
All the match details are online at the club website.

My thoughts - 900 is less than 2700, but it's a lot more than zero.
Check it out - the club calendar is also online.  
All the monthly pistol matches are run this way, but the quarterly "Old Shooter's Match" doesn't allow the 50/25 yard shooting.

It's a great range - turning targets, a good PA system, lots of enthusiastic shooters.  It's open to anyone, and the typical fee to sign up is only $15.
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Post by dapduh2 6/26/2021, 6:04 pm

Travel to some big matches. You’ll have a good time, meet a lot of the folks on here, and can watch some great shooters and learn from them.
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Post by mikemyers 7/6/2021, 2:42 pm

I just got my booklet from the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program.  I think the whole thing is online.

If I submit the scores, for the "lowest" classification, and work my way upwards, I will earn the appropriate "Classification".  Let's say that makes me a Marksman, or whatever.  Does that mean I can enter that as my NRA Classification in this forum?  I assume it does - if not, why have the program at all, other than to sell "trinkets" that I stopped collecting decades ago.
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Post by james r chapman 7/6/2021, 4:45 pm

Guess it’s just not for you, Mike.
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Post by Wobbley 7/6/2021, 5:11 pm

In rifle there is a “Distinguished Expert” program (NOT the Distiguished Rifleman award) that junior clubs would use to give structure and meaning to rifle and other training.  It was an achievable method of getting young shooters to a level of skill to prepare for high school shooting teams (remember those?). 

For the conventional bullseye program it “might” prove useful for a training method, but I think the Marine workbook is a better method.
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Post by mikemyers 7/6/2021, 6:28 pm

I read Cecil's post before it vanished.  Jim, I think you're right.  Obviously the NRA offers two methods for Bullseye shooters to get classified.  Only one of them is accepted here as "the real thing".  

The last Sunday of every month is my club's Bullseye Match, which would be a "900", and they allow the small group of Bullseye shooters who want to shoot "the real thing" to shoot at 50 and 25 yards, one handed, rather than 25 and 15 two-handed.  If asked, they would probably allow us to use all the proper targets.

Or, I can quit worrying/thinking about any of this, and just shoot the way everyone else does.  Why fight "City Hall"?

(I'm doing my holding drills with a lead filled magazine, and I'm doing all my dry-fire practice with one hand.  That's up to me, and if I post any more targets here in this forum, they will be shot one handed, with the appropriate targets.)

It's sad that everyone seems to have lost interest in the posts we used to have here where everyone can post their bullseye target results.  I miss that.  Maybe I'll just re-start those threads, after the upcoming major events are completed.
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Post by SonOfAGun 7/6/2021, 10:39 pm

mikemyers wrote:I just got my booklet from the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program.  I think the whole thing is online.
...
Does that mean I can enter that as my NRA Classification in this forum?  I assume it does - if not, why have the program at all, other than to sell "trinkets" that I stopped collecting decades ago.

I think you can enter anything you want in the "classification" field for this forum. There is no official *anything* to it: no field limiters, and no checking or confirmation of what you might put there.

That being said, I'm pretty sure it's intended to show your official NRA Precision Pistol classification, achieved by participating in sanctioned matches. I assume that the CMP classification system is close enough that it would be an effective equivalent.

It is my further opinion that the NRA Marksmanship Qualification program is completely unrelated to this. Full stop.

I submit that a reader of this forum could (should?) look at someone's comment and, to a great extent, judge the value or weight of that comment relative to the classification of the person who posted it. In short, Masters and High Masters have more experience and wisdom, some of which is gleaned from actually shooting in matches. Their opinions literally have more value than those who have not achieved these classifications.

So, please respect the intent of the "classification" field here in the forum. Because some of the people here probably shot more Xs for score in official matches last year, than the total number of rounds I've ever shot in all the matches in my whole life. And to me, that means something. So don't listen to me. Listen to the High Masters.
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Post by mikemyers 7/7/2021, 1:27 pm

SonOfAGun wrote:..........I'm pretty sure it's intended to show your official NRA Precision Pistol classification, achieved by participating in sanctioned matches.........
I completely understand that.
I abandoned any thoughts of participating in the program.  


Regardless of what defines an NRA Precision Pistol Classification, if what you just wrote is correct, I don't see any point in participating in the program.  I will just continue to keep on keeping on, and participate in the monthly matches at my club.  

Thank you for simplifying this, and if nobody disagrees, the discussion can end here.
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Post by Founder 7/7/2021, 2:49 pm

Mikemyers,

There appears to be some confusion about a proper "NRA Precision Pistol" or "CMP Match Pistol" classification and the "NRA Winchester NRA MARKSMANSHIP QUALIFICATION PROGRAM" that James Chapman brought up. The latter isn't directly related to our sport in any way.

I believe that sanctioning matches with scores that are submitted to the NRA or CMP for Classification is a value to the competitors. It gives competitors goals to achieve and outsiders a way to learn about your club and attracts those outsiders to compete in your tournaments. When a match gets sanctioned, it appears on that body's tournament calendar and shooters might see it and join you.

If you or someone at your club is interested in being the administrator of a proper NRA sanctioned match at your club, https://precisionshootingmatches.com/ was created to give a new match director the tools they would need to administer such a match easily. Many seasoned match directors do this with a spreadsheet that they create, but I'm just not equipped to do that administrative work---the PSM tools are perfect for that first-time match director to get started.

Another Florida match director who is well known is Ted Carter. Ted is also on the NRA Board of Directors. Perhaps he could be a resource for you to get started.

As for your 2 handed shooters: there is nothing that I can think of that would prevent your 2 handed shooters from doing what you have been doing in the past during the sanctioned match. The one handed shooters at the sanctioned distance would be the only competitors to have their scores submitted to the sanctioning body. The others would be shown on the locally printed match results as competitors in the local unsanctioned match.

I hope that helps.
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Post by mikemyers 7/7/2021, 3:34 pm

Rob, thanks for all the information.

Actually Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club used to host 2700 matches, but this was from long before I got involved.  Apparently the club members preferred two hand shooting at 25 and 15 yards.  Some of us prefer "the real thing".  That seems to be three to six shooters.  So we shoot at 50 and 25, but we don't use the appropriate targets for Bullseye.

I might ask Linda Dillon, the club secretary, about this.  On the one hand it means more work for her and the scoring team.  On the other hand, if we host a REAL 900 event, people from all over South Florida might show up, which would be great (I think).  

One of my favorite sayings is "Anything is easy to do, when you're not the one who gets to do it."  

Perhaps Linda will bring this up with the rest of the board, and perhaps something will come of it.  

Thanks for taking the time to post what you did.  I might forward it to Linda.


Last edited by mikemyers on 7/7/2021, 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changed "will" to "might".)
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