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Expanding Bullseye Matches to more of the USA

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Expanding Bullseye Matches to more of the USA - Page 2 Empty Expanding Bullseye Matches to more of the USA

Post by mikemyers 6/25/2021, 10:50 am

First topic message reminder :

I don't think this is possible, but I will ask anyway.

I belong to the Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club - https://www.hrpclub.info

Long ago, the club used to host full 2700 matches, but apparently as time has gone by, shooters lost interest.  We still have bullseye matches once a month, but they are separated into two groups, the real "bullseye" group shooting at 50 and 25 yards one-handed, and the other group shooting at 25 and 15 yards, two-handed shooting permissible.  Each group scores themselves separately.  Bullseye shooters can shoot any legal Bullseye gun - most shoot 22, and the match becomes a 900, not 2700.

The club belongs to the NRA, and the CMP.  

This leads me to my question - if the club were to take all the scoring information from the "bullseye group" and submit it to the appropriate place, would those of us participating in it be able to get "classified" as others do?

I thought this would have been impossible, because we might have three to five shooters.  But then I see results from other clubs, where sometimes there are just as few shooters.  Actually, if our club matches became "real" bullseye matches, maybe more shooters would attend.  Right now, perhaps 35 people sign up for our matches.

If this is a "dead end street", I'll forget about it.  If it's plausible, I'd like to submit it to the club to consider for the future.
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Post by Soupy44 7/7/2021, 8:20 pm

Mike,

To get something started you need to give folks to opportunity to show up in the first place.  The more opportunity, the better, so welcome all the 2 handers you can with open arms.  

Next is to have easy steps folks can take to progress.  If that's starting 2 handed at 15 and 25, then moving to 2 handed 25 and 50, welcome that too!  They can progress to 1 handed when they please.  If they don't, who cares, you still have bodies showing up for your matches.  If you end up needing spots on the line year(s) from now for 1 handed shooters because you've built a machine, then you can have more frank discussions with the 2 handers.

Make sure to take care of your regulars, then think about bringing in outside folks.  Regulars are...regular!  

I'd suggest getting the 1 handed folks shooting the right targets, and let the other folks stay with the 15/25 course.  Maybe see if there's enough interest to bring in a really experienced shooter to give a few hour school one day.

I also wouldn't suggest ignoring the Qualification program.  It can be very motivating for folks.  An alternative is seeing if folks want to work through the Pistol Workbook as a team.

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Post by mikemyers 7/7/2021, 8:59 pm

I wish Cecil hadn't deleted his post.  As usual, it was right to the point.  I think he was also suggesting I post too much, which is easily corrected.

There are lots of things people can do at HRPC - check the calendar:  https://www.hrpclub.info/10.html

I sort of think the club is already doing what you suggest.  

As for me, when I get ideas like how I started this thread, maybe I should just keep them to myself.  You guys are way ahead of me anyway.  There's another famous saying I'll never forget: "If you can't beat them, join them."  They want to shoot at 25 and 15, two handed, at B-8 targets, fine, I'll do the same.  But, I will continue to dry-fire and do holding drills one handed, and I'll use the correct targets at the correct distances when I'm on my own.  Who knows what will happen in the future.  

(I don't enjoy driving long distances, so the chances of my traveling to a "real" Bullseye match are pretty slim.  So, I'll just enjoy doing whatever it is we get to do at my club, and I'll also practice for the "real thing" if I ever get an opportunity to so in the future.)

Thanks, and thanks to Cecil too for posting what he did, even if it evaporated after I read it.  I think he understands me better than I do.
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Post by msmith44 7/11/2021, 11:48 am

mikemyers wrote:I read Cecil's post before it vanished.  Jim, I think you're right.  Obviously the NRA offers two methods for Bullseye shooters to get classified.  Only one of them is accepted here as "the real thing".  

The last Sunday of every month is my club's Bullseye Match, which would be a "900", and they allow the small group of Bullseye shooters who want to shoot "the real thing" to shoot at 50 and 25 yards, one handed, rather than 25 and 15 two-handed.  If asked, they would probably allow us to use all the proper targets.

Or, I can quit worrying/thinking about any of this, and just shoot the way everyone else does.  Why fight "City Hall"?

(I'm doing my holding drills with a lead filled magazine, and I'm doing all my dry-fire practice with one hand.  That's up to me, and if I post any more targets here in this forum, they will be shot one handed, with the appropriate targets.)

It's sad that everyone seems to have lost interest in the posts we used to have here where everyone can post their bullseye target results.  I miss that.  Maybe I'll just re-start those threads, after the upcoming major events are completed.
It might help if your club actually followed Section 24 of the NRA Precision Pistols rules for two-handed shooting. Two-handed shooting must be allowed in all NRA sanctioned matches. Yesterday I attended an NRA sanctioned 2700 match as an observer and asked the Supervisor how many two-handed shooters normally participated in the 2700 matches. He snottily retorted that two-handed shooting violated NRA Rules, one-handed only and went down range to score his target. What's wrong with this picture? 

Well, first two-handed shooting is allowed. Second, Supervisors cannot participate in a match they supervise. I'll not go into detail on the sloppiness of range commands. The two-handed option allowed in the NRA rules gives them a strategic edge over CMP that is a one-hand only match with a lightly different course of fire. New shooters learn to shoot handguns two-handed. Older shooters, like me, who after numerous shoulder surgeries cannot shoot one-handed with either hand but want to continue participating in the sport they love are being turned away. The match I attended had 12 shooters, 11 appeared to be well-over sixty; all shoot one-handed. However, to eliminate a significant population (men and women, young and old) who would like to participate or who have an interest in Precision Pistol doesn't make sense for an organization trying to grow its grassroots base.

The NRA has a responsibility to make sure the matches they sanction and the personnel supervising those matches are current with Precision Pistol rules.

BTW, NRA sanctioned two-handed matches are shot at 25 yards, not 50 and 25 nor 25 and 15.

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Post by CrankyThunder 7/11/2021, 12:08 pm

Hey Mike and everybody else:

I frequently get new shooters by advertising for people interested in competition shooting.  I advertise through gun club newsletters, on state wide gun forums, on various national gun forums, and then on local facebook groups and also on Nextdoor.com.  

I usually get a handfull of new shooters every year.  It is fun and I meet new buddies too!

Sincerely, 
George
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Post by msmith44 7/11/2021, 12:45 pm

Founder wrote:Mikemyers,

* * * * 

As for your 2 handed shooters: there is nothing that I can think of that would prevent your 2 handed shooters from doing what you have been doing in the past during the sanctioned match. The one handed shooters at the sanctioned distance would be the only competitors to have their scores submitted to the sanctioning body. The others would be shown on the locally printed match results as competitors in the local unsanctioned match.

I hope that helps.
Two-handed shooters have their scores reported just like everyone else shooting one handed. The difference is two-handed shooters plateau at Expert and are not eligible for records. Section 24, it's at about page 59 if you're reading on Adobe Acrobat.

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Post by james r chapman 7/11/2021, 2:01 pm

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. 

I'm seeing this more as a short course specific match, not a requirement of a standard precision pistol course.
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Post by Soupy44 7/11/2021, 2:20 pm

I think that just gives the leeway to be short course, not require it. The best comparable situation I can think of is small bore three position. If you can't physically shoot a position (most common was kneeling or sitting), you are allowed to shoot a "higher"position (since it is theoretically more difficult). 

Don't see anything there that dismisses the ability to shoot at 50. The next to last sentence I feel refers to not just 1 vs 2 hands, but 25 vs 50 for SF. 

A number of BE ranges would not be able to easily accommodate folks shooting 25 while most folks are at 50. As a jury member, I'd rule that second to the last sentence also gives match directors the ability to force competitors to at least shoot the LL if a 25y accomodations is not easy (range can't accommodate it due to setup or wouldn't be safe to setup a stand alone target), safe (Match Director won't put beginner a few points from the end of the line because he/she wants to have enough sets of eyes on them), or reasonable (shooter would be cross firing due to beginner-ness).

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Post by msmith44 7/11/2021, 2:28 pm

james r chapman wrote:
24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. 

I'm seeing this more as a short course specific match, not a requirement of a standard precision pistol course.
It is specific for One or Two handed probationary pistol matches. There is no reason why this can't be integrated into one-handed matches.

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Post by Soupy44 7/11/2021, 2:36 pm

I stand corrected on the wording, but I would still hold that the match director has the leeway to give the competitor a choice between not shooting or shooting 50 due to at least the short list of reasons in my previous post.

Anyone know if this rule is for approved and/or registered matches?

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Post by msmith44 7/11/2021, 4:19 pm

Soupy44 wrote:I stand corrected on the wording, but I would still hold that the match director has the leeway to give the competitor a choice between not shooting or shooting 50 due to at least the short list of reasons in my previous post.

Anyone know if this rule is for approved and/or registered matches?
"Official Rules and Regulations to govern the conduct of all Precision Pistol Matches. These rules establish uniform standards for NRA sanctioned pistol competition. Where alternatives are shown, the least restrictive conditions apply unless the tournament program sets forth limitations. They supersede all earlier editions and remain in effect until specifically superseded. Tournament sponsors may not alter these rules. If sponsors require additional rules for special conditions, the additions must be fully set forth in the program for the competition concerned." p.1. Section 24 is not an "additional" rule, it is an existing rule the same as the provisions of Section 13. 


My suggestion is that Precision Pistol shooters stop resisting this rule and embrace it. There are two groups of people who might be interested in shooting two-handed, young people who shoot USPSA, Steel and NRA Action Pistol. These games are not for everyone. It's not Spray and Pray if you want to get good and getting good is tough because training opportunities are so limited. So you learn while competing in that game. These potential Precision Pistol shooters see something interesting until they interact with existing Precision shooters and want to shoot two-handed. 


The second group is older shooters who are not Section 13 material but still cannot effectively or safely shoot with one-hand but can with two. Two-handed shooters don't compete with you as you move toward the top of the High Master mountain. They cannot shoot scores that are listed as records even if they could shoot High Master Scores. They'll never be classed higher as expert. 


You lost the "it's the tradition" argument when the NRA changed the equipment rules to allow optic sights. What do one-hand shooters have to gain by embracing these two-handed shooting. One-by-one you lose shooters due to age and infirmity. Participants become fewer until the NRA gives it away. Allowing shooters you know to continue shooting two-handed allows all of us to participate and keeps the sport alive for those young people who shoot two-handed to move into the one-hand group. What do you lose? Nothing.


Thank you for the respectful interaction on this issue. it's helped organize a letter that's going to the NRA on Section 24 as well and the non-professional conduct of a sanctioned match supervisor and the need for continuing education of NRA sanctioned match officials.


Best wishes,




Marvin

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Post by CR10X 7/11/2021, 4:22 pm

Deleted


Last edited by CR10X on 7/11/2021, 7:54 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Can't type for carp and I get tired of typing the same thing over and over and over again.)

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Post by msmith44 7/11/2021, 5:40 pm

CR10X wrote:Let me try to clear this up one more time.  

One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match is NOT required for any NRA sanctioned Approved or Registered Tournament.  Matches to be fired (and other conditions, etc., for the tournament) are specified in the Tournament Program submitted to the NRA for sanctioning.  If the NRA provides sanctioning (authorization) then those matches and conditions are accepted by the NRA. (This is important as you will see below concerning authorization for our match.) It is the option of the Tournament to determine and specify that match (One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match) as part of the tournament and IF SO, the rule it there to provide for how that match would be run.

For example, it is impossible at our match to accommodate the requirements of One or Town Had Probationary Pistol Match since there is a turning target line at 25 yards and a stationary line at 50 yards.  To include the 25 yard slow fire requirement would require those targets to be facing the shooting line, and therefore partially obscure the 50 yard targets.  

Therefore we specifically specify that Rule 5.5 is required for our tournament  in the program and we had have Approved matches for over 50 years and continuously Approved since the addition of the OPTIONAL One or Two Hand Probationary Match about 9 years or so ago.  We made the change to require Rule 5.5 at that time (which in itself excludes the option for the Match in question) so there would be no confusion. (And Yes, I personally had conversations with both the NRA staff and NRA Referee when this option was added, just like I did with the .22 Only Aggregate option.)

As always, the NRA Precision Pistol rules allow for a WIDE array of matches and formats, but only require certain courses of fire (matches or stages) IF the tournament is to meet the requirements for shooter to shoot for classification scores. What every Tournament / Match does have to do is follow the APPENDIX GENERAL REGULATIONS FOR NRA SANCTIONED TOURNAMENTS in order to comply with the sanctioned status.  

Again, One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match, and .22 Caliber Only Aggregate are NOT required at any Approved or Registered tournament sanctioned by the NRA.  

22.6 Tournaments- Tournament sponsors are encouraged (NOTE: NOT REQUIRED) to include .22 Caliber Only Aggregate Competition individual and team events as a part of their program.

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH Each course of fire would (NOTE: WOULD INDICATES AN OPTION. THE TERMS REQIRED OR SHALL BE ARE NOT USED.  WOULD IS USED TO INDICATE THAT IF THE MATCH IS HELD, THIS IS HOW IT WOULD) be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equip.....

If everything in the Precision Pistol Rule book was required, then (for example) Rule 5.5 and One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match would be at odds. 

The complete Rule Book should be read and interpreted as a whole, not by specific parts.  

CR
HM, DP#1232, DR#9, D22#76, P100X14, MayleighX2
Orton, Wyman, Oglethorpe, Elihu Root, & Gold Cup Trophies
and 22 Year Match Director

And I'm outta here....
"Would does not indicate an option absent the conditional "If such a match is offered... it would..." Your club could solve the two-hand problem by a separate squad of two-hand shooters after the  completion of the long line. But it appears to me your not interested in solving what appears to be the exclusion of people who could contribute to the continued life of Provisional Pistol. Best wishes for the continued success at what appears to be a very well-equipped club.

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Post by CR10X 7/11/2021, 6:24 pm

Deleted


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Post by james r chapman 7/11/2021, 6:37 pm

Let’s see how NRA handles it at Atterbury!
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Post by msmith44 7/11/2021, 7:50 pm

james r chapman wrote:Let’s see how NRA handles it at Atterbury!
What is there to handle? How many One-/Two Hand Matches have been held in the last five years. How many at your club? There's not even an abbreviation for One-/Two Hand Matches on the Shooting Sports coming events website. I hate the hypocrisy that this option exists when it doesn't. If you can no longer shoot one-handed and you don't qualify under Section 13 there is to place to go. 

Last week with temperatures over 100 in the Indoor range where I shoot the were two people that shot bullseye and only shot a 600 and 40 who shot USPSA action and shot multiple runs. From a American culture standpoint, Precision Pistol is viewed an an elitist activity that old men do. And they're right.

I do find it a bit ironic that the visual on the NRA/Shooting Sports shows a woman shooting two-handed. There's a message here.

Keep up the good work.

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Post by chiz1180 7/11/2021, 7:54 pm

If one wishes to shoot with two hands at closer distances than typical to bullseye rules (nra or cmp), Glock matches are a great option. No need to add additional variation if something similar to that particular variation exists.

Running a match is a ton of work, and often ends up being done by maybe 2-3 people at best. No need to make additional work or complications for those few who put in the effort to put on a match.

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Post by Soupy44 7/11/2021, 8:08 pm

msmith44,

What you are missing is the context and situation of Cecil's experience and matches. He filled 178 of his 180 slots for the year in a week or two. Most of his competitors are EX or above. Cecil joked, and I think he should do it, about selling tickets to his match that you pay up front for. If you can't make it, it's up to you to pawn it off. This is because his big issues are no shows and long waiting lists. That is what he is dealing with. Also, we have two local indoor leagues that handle the new folks and two handed shooters. 

Mike is on the opposite end of the spectrum from Cecil, or better two ends of the journey of building bullseye programs. At this point, less about their situations overlap than is helpful. Regardless, Cecil built this from roughly what Mike has. His knowledge is valuable.

What we could really use is anyone who currently accommodates two handed shooters and what they do.

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Post by chopper 7/11/2021, 10:28 pm

I'm trying to figure out how this topic started and what they wanted. It seems Mike Meyers wants to have a sanctioned or approved NRA 2700. His club doesn't offer one, only 1 or 2 hand 900 matches which can't be sanctioned that their membership came up with. 
 My club doesn't offer any NRA matches either, only a thing called "300 League" indoors in the fall. They don't like NRA rules and shoot 2 handed, you don't want to know how they handle alibis. They can get 30-40 shooters that compete in "300" and they can shoot 22 and centerfire.
 There's 5 of us left that shoot in NRA postal league after the "300" gets done. We try very hard to get some of those "300" guys to join in our postal but the answer we always get is it's too hard. I think Mike should put out a newsletter to his club secretary and ask their membership who's interested in NRA matches and maybe put on a 2700 or maybe get a NRA Postal League started.
 As far as the latest post about shooting 2 handed in NRA sanctioned matches, they are just that "Probationary 2 handed" I think they are temporary to the competitor for like 6 months or a year. As far as msmith44 and others that want to shoot 2 handed at a 2700, I think it's only fair that you contact the MD at said match early and ask them about the 2 handed Probationary. I would think if they could accommodate you they would try or let you know what is required of you to attend and maybe tell you how to get paperwork straightened out to get your scores sent in to NRA. If you guys truly want to compete with other 2 handers then you'll probably have to organize something other than the NRA Probationary. 
 Don't sit back and say " why doesn't somebody do something". I like to say "if not you then who, if not now when". Grab that bull by the horns, you guys.
 Stan

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Post by CR10X 7/12/2021, 5:44 am

I provided a correction to misinformation on this thread.  If a Tournament wishes to provide for ".22 Only" or "One or Two Hand", etc., they can do so, but are not required to do so for sanctioning, as per responses from the NRA at the inception of each these options.  Quote from msmith44 post above: "Two-handed shooting must be allowed in all NRA sanctioned matches."

It appears that Marvin (msmith44) either can't or does not want to shoot "one handed" and appears to want to force a Tournament (and the NRA) to accommodate his wishes.  So it now becomes an issue for everyone that needs to be addressed to "grow the sport".  

What Mike appears to want to do is to have a Tournament with matches that quality for the scores to be provided to the NRA for classification purposes. 

Of course the solution is that they both send applications and specific match programs to the NRA for sanctioning and HAVE TOURNAMENTS that contain what they want.
[I'll even help them write up a tournament program. Of course the process, outline and other information that is needed is in the Rule Book and the applications can be done on line. ]

The answer to more participation is ALWAYS more matches to shoot in, not managing to the exception. 

The problem with this solution is that they would have to do something like run the matches and so therefore would probably not get to shoot what they want unless they can get someone else to do it.

Since neither of them appears to have even participated or run a full 2700 Aggregate in one day (at least from the idea of adding 9 more strings of slow fire at 25 yards as a "solution" for Marvin to turn a 6 hour tournament into an ++8 hour tournament), I don't see any further need for participation in this discussion.

CR


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Post by SonOfAGun 7/12/2021, 11:19 am

CR10X wrote:...

What Mike appears to want to do is to have a Tournament with matches that quality for the scores to be provided to the NRA for classification purposes. 

...

The fast track here is not to begin directing matches, or making a few other people to run sanctioned monthly matches at your club. Instead, go where the matches are happening. I know it's been mentioned before, but...

Getting Mike's club to attend to his desire of hosting sanctioned matches will require a bunch of other people to change their behavior. Apparently those people are already doing what they want, and those weekly or monthly casual club matches satisfy them. So the simplest path for Mike to get what he wants (an official bullseye classification) would seem to be...

A. Drive solo to the nearest match. Bite the proverbial bullet and just do it. Once.

B. Try to get ONE other person from your club to join you, and together drive to the nearest match.

If you don't like to drive long distance yourself, convince someone else that it would be a fun, one-off thing to do. Offer to buy lunch and pay for gas. Use your car and ask them to drive. Pay their entry fee. Cover their ammo. Mike, I've heard you mention a brother that also shoots- maybe you do this together.

Either of these seem a more practical starting point than trying to talk several other other people into doing what they apparently don't want to do.

Granted, this is only a starting point. Maybe you only go once and be done with it. But maybe you discover that you like it so much you decide that it is worth the effort to make the trip every month. Or maybe you get one or two other guys from your club that really appreciate making that trek to shoot a 'real' match. Or maybe... nothing.
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Post by DA/SA 7/12/2021, 12:02 pm

The other side of the coin is that if Mike is shooting the monthly matches at his range, he should know what his scores are, and therefore what his classification would be.

I'm pretty sure that he has posted numerous times that he is not interested in competing, which negates the need for an official classification anyway.
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Post by msmith44 7/12/2021, 12:40 pm

Soupy44 wrote:msmith44,

What you are missing is the context and situation of Cecil's experience and matches. He filled 178 of his 180 slots for the year in a week or two. Most of his competitors are EX or above. Cecil joked, and I think he should do it, about selling tickets to his match that you pay up front for. If you can't make it, it's up to you to pawn it off. This is because his big issues are no shows and long waiting lists. That is what he is dealing with. Also, we have two local indoor leagues that handle the new folks and two handed shooters. 

Mike is on the opposite end of the spectrum from Cecil, or better two ends of the journey of building bullseye programs. At this point, less about their situations overlap than is helpful. Regardless, Cecil built this from roughly what Mike has. His knowledge is valuable.

What we could really use is anyone who currently accommodates two handed shooters and what they do.
I'm not missing anyone's experiences. I learned a lot from his posts and I'm grateful he took the time to post. Cecil's success in filling slots is impressive. I'm sure it due to hard work, creative marketing and building a reputation for producing matches that start, run and finish on time. It also sounds like your range is doing good work perhaps you could consult ranges who could boost the bottom line with a bit more organization and activities to build a target oriented client base.

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Post by msmith44 7/12/2021, 1:04 pm

CR10X wrote:I provided a correction to misinformation on this thread.  If a Tournament wishes to provide for ".22 Only" or "One or Two Hand", etc., they can do so, but are not required to do so for sanctioning, as per responses from the NRA at the inception of each these options.  

It appears that Marvin (msmith44) either can't or does not want to shoot "one handed" and appears to want to force a Tournament (and the NRA) to accommodate his wishes.  So it now becomes an issue for everyone that needs to be addressed to "grow the sport".  

What Mike appears to want to do is to have a Tournament with matches that quality for the scores to be provided to the NRA for classification purposes. 

Of course the solution is that they both send applications and specific match programs to the NRA for sanctioning and HAVE TOURNAMENTS that contain what they want.
[I'll even help them write up a tournament program. Of course the process, outline and other information that is needed is in the Rule Book and the applications can be done on line. ]

The answer to more participation is ALWAYS more matches to shoot in, not managing to the exception. 

The problem with this solution is that they would have to do something like run the matches and so therefore would probably not get to shoot what they want unless they can get someone else to do it.

Since neither of them appears to have even participated or run a full 2700 Aggregate in one day (at least from the idea of adding 9 more strings of slow fire at 25 yards as a "solution" for Marvin to turn a 6 hour tournament into an ++8 hour tournament), I don't see any further need for participation in this discussion.

CR
And I said such nice things about you above... sigh. I agree that I should agitate that the two ranges where I am a member should stage tournaments. I should be willing to invest in the NRA courses for Range Officer and Match Director or whatever. I disagree that more Precision Pistol matches increases participation. While it might increase slightly I think what you will get is more of the same people shooting more tournaments. My concern is increasing participation and two-handed would do that by opening the door however slightly via Section 24. 

You are incorrect in your assertion that I want to force something. I visited a 2700 Tournament and inquired about two-hand shooting, got a lecture and left. I'll not return. In the first Chapter of my shooting career I did attend 2700 matches. I know how they are run. My discipline was not Bullseye, as it was called then, but international turning targets at 25 meters. Today, I think it's included as part of the 25 meter pistol events at the Olympics. I don't know of any ranges in the U.S. the still have the facilities except perhaps the Olympic Training Center in Colorado.

Best wishes for your continued success in producing Precision Pistol events.

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Post by msmith44 7/12/2021, 1:22 pm

chopper wrote:I'm trying to figure out how this topic started and what they wanted. It seems Mike Meyers wants to have a sanctioned or approved NRA 2700. His club doesn't offer one, only 1 or 2 hand 900 matches which can't be sanctioned that their membership came up with. 
 My club doesn't offer any NRA matches either, only a thing called "300 League" indoors in the fall. They don't like NRA rules and shoot 2 handed, you don't want to know how they handle alibis. They can get 30-40 shooters that compete in "300" and they can shoot 22 and centerfire.
 There's 5 of us left that shoot in NRA postal league after the "300" gets done. We try very hard to get some of those "300" guys to join in our postal but the answer we always get is it's too hard. I think Mike should put out a newsletter to his club secretary and ask their membership who's interested in NRA matches and maybe put on a 2700 or maybe get a NRA Postal League started.
 As far as the latest post about shooting 2 handed in NRA sanctioned matches, they are just that "Probationary 2 handed" I think they are temporary to the competitor for like 6 months or a year. As far as msmith44 and others that want to shoot 2 handed at a 2700, I think it's only fair that you contact the MD at said match early and ask them about the 2 handed Probationary. I would think if they could accommodate you they would try or let you know what is required of you to attend and maybe tell you how to get paperwork straightened out to get your scores sent in to NRA. If you guys truly want to compete with other 2 handers then you'll probably have to organize something other than the NRA Probationary. 
 Don't sit back and say " why doesn't somebody do something". I like to say "if not you then who, if not now when". Grab that bull by the horns, you guys.
 Stan
You "think" incorrectly. I don't believe I said I wanted to shoot a 2700. I visited a 2700 last weekend to see if 2-handed shooting was an option under Section 24. Section 24 is a Probationary MATCH according to the title. It is poorly drafted with an incorrect target listed and I can find no record of it ever being offered in a sanctioned event. I'm still researching. There is no reason why a Section 24 Match can't be offered as a stand alone event and be sanctioned, perhaps someone can provide a reason but Cecil who seems to be an expert in these matters agrees. The paperwork would be handled in exactly the same way as the rules provide. What makes you think I'm the kind of person who sits back and expects someone else to solve the problem. I don't see you as a much of a "Change Agent" in your club.

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Post by chopper 7/12/2021, 1:46 pm

msmith44 wrote:
chopper wrote:I'm trying to figure out how this topic started and what they wanted. It seems Mike Meyers wants to have a sanctioned or approved NRA 2700. His club doesn't offer one, only 1 or 2 hand 900 matches which can't be sanctioned that their membership came up with. 
 My club doesn't offer any NRA matches either, only a thing called "300 League" indoors in the fall. They don't like NRA rules and shoot 2 handed, you don't want to know how they handle alibis. They can get 30-40 shooters that compete in "300" and they can shoot 22 and centerfire.
 There's 5 of us left that shoot in NRA postal league after the "300" gets done. We try very hard to get some of those "300" guys to join in our postal but the answer we always get is it's too hard. I think Mike should put out a newsletter to his club secretary and ask their membership who's interested in NRA matches and maybe put on a 2700 or maybe get a NRA Postal League started.
 As far as the latest post about shooting 2 handed in NRA sanctioned matches, they are just that "Probationary 2 handed" I think they are temporary to the competitor for like 6 months or a year. As far as msmith44 and others that want to shoot 2 handed at a 2700, I think it's only fair that you contact the MD at said match early and ask them about the 2 handed Probationary. I would think if they could accommodate you they would try or let you know what is required of you to attend and maybe tell you how to get paperwork straightened out to get your scores sent in to NRA. If you guys truly want to compete with other 2 handers then you'll probably have to organize something other than the NRA Probationary. 
 Don't sit back and say " why doesn't somebody do something". I like to say "if not you then who, if not now when". Grab that bull by the horns, you guys.
 Stan
You "think" incorrectly. I don't believe I said I wanted to shoot a 2700. I visited a 2700 last weekend to see if 2-handed shooting was an option under Section 24. Section 24 is a Probationary MATCH according to the title. It is poorly drafted with an incorrect target listed and I can find no record of it ever being offered in a sanctioned event. I'm still researching. There is no reason why a Section 24 Match can't be offered as a stand alone event and be sanctioned, perhaps someone can provide a reason but Cecil who seems to be an expert in these matters agrees. The paperwork would be handled in exactly the same way as the rules provide. What makes you think I'm the kind of person who sits back and expects someone else to solve the problem. I don't see you as a much of a "Change Agent" in your club.
 msmith44, so do you want to shoot a 2700, yes or no?

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