Expanding Bullseye Matches to more of the USA

mikemyers wrote:I read Cecil's post before it vanished.  Jim, I think you're right.  Obviously the NRA offers two methods for Bullseye shooters to get classified.  Only one of them is accepted here as "the real thing".  

The last Sunday of every month is my club's Bullseye Match, which would be a "900", and they allow the small group of Bullseye shooters who want to shoot "the real thing" to shoot at 50 and 25 yards, one handed, rather than 25 and 15 two-handed.  If asked, they would probably allow us to use all the proper targets.

Or, I can quit worrying/thinking about any of this, and just shoot the way everyone else does.  Why fight "City Hall"?

(I'm doing my holding drills with a lead filled magazine, and I'm doing all my dry-fire practice with one hand.  That's up to me, and if I post any more targets here in this forum, they will be shot one handed, with the appropriate targets.)

It's sad that everyone seems to have lost interest in the posts we used to have here where everyone can post their bullseye target results.  I miss that.  Maybe I'll just re-start those threads, after the upcoming major events are completed.

Founder wrote:Mikemyers,

* * * * 

As for your 2 handed shooters: there is nothing that I can think of that would prevent your 2 handed shooters from doing what you have been doing in the past during the sanctioned match. The one handed shooters at the sanctioned distance would be the only competitors to have their scores submitted to the sanctioning body. The others would be shown on the locally printed match results as competitors in the local unsanctioned match.

I hope that helps.

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. 

james r chapman wrote:

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. 

I'm seeing this more as a short course specific match, not a requirement of a standard precision pistol course.

Soupy44 wrote:I stand corrected on the wording, but I would still hold that the match director has the leeway to give the competitor a choice between not shooting or shooting 50 due to at least the short list of reasons in my previous post.

Anyone know if this rule is for approved and/or registered matches?

CR10X wrote:Let me try to clear this up one more time.  

One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match is NOT required for any NRA sanctioned Approved or Registered Tournament.  Matches to be fired (and other conditions, etc., for the tournament) are specified in the Tournament Program submitted to the NRA for sanctioning.  If the NRA provides sanctioning (authorization) then those matches and conditions are accepted by the NRA. (This is important as you will see below concerning authorization for our match.) It is the option of the Tournament to determine and specify that match (One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match) as part of the tournament and IF SO, the rule it there to provide for how that match would be run.

For example, it is impossible at our match to accommodate the requirements of One or Town Had Probationary Pistol Match since there is a turning target line at 25 yards and a stationary line at 50 yards.  To include the 25 yard slow fire requirement would require those targets to be facing the shooting line, and therefore partially obscure the 50 yard targets.  

Therefore we specifically specify that Rule 5.5 is required for our tournament  in the program and we had have Approved matches for over 50 years and continuously Approved since the addition of the OPTIONAL One or Two Hand Probationary Match about 9 years or so ago.  We made the change to require Rule 5.5 at that time (which in itself excludes the option for the Match in question) so there would be no confusion. (And Yes, I personally had conversations with both the NRA staff and NRA Referee when this option was added, just like I did with the .22 Only Aggregate option.)

As always, the NRA Precision Pistol rules allow for a WIDE array of matches and formats, but only require certain courses of fire (matches or stages) IF the tournament is to meet the requirements for shooter to shoot for classification scores. What every Tournament / Match does have to do is follow the APPENDIX GENERAL REGULATIONS FOR NRA SANCTIONED TOURNAMENTS in order to comply with the sanctioned status.  

Again, One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match, and .22 Caliber Only Aggregate are NOT required at any Approved or Registered tournament sanctioned by the NRA.  

22.6 Tournaments- Tournament sponsors are encouraged (NOTE: NOT REQUIRED) to include .22 Caliber Only Aggregate Competition individual and team events as a part of their program.

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH Each course of fire would (NOTE: WOULD INDICATES AN OPTION. THE TERMS REQIRED OR SHALL BE ARE NOT USED.  WOULD IS USED TO INDICATE THAT IF THE MATCH IS HELD, THIS IS HOW IT WOULD) be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equip.....

If everything in the Precision Pistol Rule book was required, then (for example) Rule 5.5 and One or Two Hand Probationary Pistol Match would be at odds. 

The complete Rule Book should be read and interpreted as a whole, not by specific parts.  

CR
HM, DP#1232, DR#9, D22#76, P100X14, MayleighX2
Orton, Wyman, Oglethorpe, Elihu Root, & Gold Cup Trophies
and 22 Year Match Director

And I'm outta here....

james r chapman wrote:Let’s see how NRA handles it at Atterbury!

CR10X wrote:...

What Mike appears to want to do is to have a Tournament with matches that quality for the scores to be provided to the NRA for classification purposes. 

...

Soupy44 wrote:msmith44,

What you are missing is the context and situation of Cecil's experience and matches. He filled 178 of his 180 slots for the year in a week or two. Most of his competitors are EX or above. Cecil joked, and I think he should do it, about selling tickets to his match that you pay up front for. If you can't make it, it's up to you to pawn it off. This is because his big issues are no shows and long waiting lists. That is what he is dealing with. Also, we have two local indoor leagues that handle the new folks and two handed shooters. 

Mike is on the opposite end of the spectrum from Cecil, or better two ends of the journey of building bullseye programs. At this point, less about their situations overlap than is helpful. Regardless, Cecil built this from roughly what Mike has. His knowledge is valuable.

What we could really use is anyone who currently accommodates two handed shooters and what they do.

CR10X wrote:I provided a correction to misinformation on this thread.  If a Tournament wishes to provide for ".22 Only" or "One or Two Hand", etc., they can do so, but are not required to do so for sanctioning, as per responses from the NRA at the inception of each these options.  

It appears that Marvin (msmith44) either can't or does not want to shoot "one handed" and appears to want to force a Tournament (and the NRA) to accommodate his wishes.  So it now becomes an issue for everyone that needs to be addressed to "grow the sport".  

What Mike appears to want to do is to have a Tournament with matches that quality for the scores to be provided to the NRA for classification purposes. 

Of course the solution is that they both send applications and specific match programs to the NRA for sanctioning and HAVE TOURNAMENTS that contain what they want.
[I'll even help them write up a tournament program. Of course the process, outline and other information that is needed is in the Rule Book and the applications can be done on line. ]

The answer to more participation is ALWAYS more matches to shoot in, not managing to the exception. 

The problem with this solution is that they would have to do something like run the matches and so therefore would probably not get to shoot what they want unless they can get someone else to do it.

Since neither of them appears to have even participated or run a full 2700 Aggregate in one day (at least from the idea of adding 9 more strings of slow fire at 25 yards as a "solution" for Marvin to turn a 6 hour tournament into an ++8 hour tournament), I don't see any further need for participation in this discussion.

CR

chopper wrote:I'm trying to figure out how this topic started and what they wanted. It seems Mike Meyers wants to have a sanctioned or approved NRA 2700. His club doesn't offer one, only 1 or 2 hand 900 matches which can't be sanctioned that their membership came up with. 
 My club doesn't offer any NRA matches either, only a thing called "300 League" indoors in the fall. They don't like NRA rules and shoot 2 handed, you don't want to know how they handle alibis. They can get 30-40 shooters that compete in "300" and they can shoot 22 and centerfire.
 There's 5 of us left that shoot in NRA postal league after the "300" gets done. We try very hard to get some of those "300" guys to join in our postal but the answer we always get is it's too hard. I think Mike should put out a newsletter to his club secretary and ask their membership who's interested in NRA matches and maybe put on a 2700 or maybe get a NRA Postal League started.
 As far as the latest post about shooting 2 handed in NRA sanctioned matches, they are just that "Probationary 2 handed" I think they are temporary to the competitor for like 6 months or a year. As far as msmith44 and others that want to shoot 2 handed at a 2700, I think it's only fair that you contact the MD at said match early and ask them about the 2 handed Probationary. I would think if they could accommodate you they would try or let you know what is required of you to attend and maybe tell you how to get paperwork straightened out to get your scores sent in to NRA. If you guys truly want to compete with other 2 handers then you'll probably have to organize something other than the NRA Probationary. 
 Don't sit back and say " why doesn't somebody do something". I like to say "if not you then who, if not now when". Grab that bull by the horns, you guys.
 Stan

msmith44 wrote:

chopper wrote:I'm trying to figure out how this topic started and what they wanted. It seems Mike Meyers wants to have a sanctioned or approved NRA 2700. His club doesn't offer one, only 1 or 2 hand 900 matches which can't be sanctioned that their membership came up with. 
 My club doesn't offer any NRA matches either, only a thing called "300 League" indoors in the fall. They don't like NRA rules and shoot 2 handed, you don't want to know how they handle alibis. They can get 30-40 shooters that compete in "300" and they can shoot 22 and centerfire.
 There's 5 of us left that shoot in NRA postal league after the "300" gets done. We try very hard to get some of those "300" guys to join in our postal but the answer we always get is it's too hard. I think Mike should put out a newsletter to his club secretary and ask their membership who's interested in NRA matches and maybe put on a 2700 or maybe get a NRA Postal League started.
 As far as the latest post about shooting 2 handed in NRA sanctioned matches, they are just that "Probationary 2 handed" I think they are temporary to the competitor for like 6 months or a year. As far as msmith44 and others that want to shoot 2 handed at a 2700, I think it's only fair that you contact the MD at said match early and ask them about the 2 handed Probationary. I would think if they could accommodate you they would try or let you know what is required of you to attend and maybe tell you how to get paperwork straightened out to get your scores sent in to NRA. If you guys truly want to compete with other 2 handers then you'll probably have to organize something other than the NRA Probationary. 
 Don't sit back and say " why doesn't somebody do something". I like to say "if not you then who, if not now when". Grab that bull by the horns, you guys.
 Stan

You "think" incorrectly. I don't believe I said I wanted to shoot a 2700. I visited a 2700 last weekend to see if 2-handed shooting was an option under Section 24. Section 24 is a Probationary MATCH according to the title. It is poorly drafted with an incorrect target listed and I can find no record of it ever being offered in a sanctioned event. I'm still researching. There is no reason why a Section 24 Match can't be offered as a stand alone event and be sanctioned, perhaps someone can provide a reason but Cecil who seems to be an expert in these matters agrees. The paperwork would be handled in exactly the same way as the rules provide. What makes you think I'm the kind of person who sits back and expects someone else to solve the problem. I don't see you as a much of a "Change Agent" in your club.