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Service Pistol advise

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WSR32
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UnGe
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Post by UnGe Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

I am pretty new to anything above .22, and wanted to try something bigger, starting with CMP EIC (not really ready for going 2700 with current ammo prices and no desire to do reloading yet).
What would be a good beginner service pistol for a .22 SS? Based on factory ammo prices, probably 9mm, but I am open to other options.
I'd like to try something least expensive but still decent (mostly - more or less decent trigger out of the box, and adjustable sights)
Any advise?

UnGe

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Post by Merick Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:22 am

Allgoodhits wrote:
One of the absolute best training methods is also the least expensive. Definitely the least amount of fun. It is DRY FIRING.

Dry fire is a party with cake and ice cream compared to brass prep.

Merick

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Post by TargetPistolGuy Thu May 26, 2022 8:37 pm

OP: To get started any quality production 1911 with adjustable target sights and black front will be sufficient to get you started. 45 or 9mm is totally up to you. Given that you won’t be reloading I would suggest 9mm. It is more widely available in target offerings and similarly priced. There are a lot of good reman makers that put out good ammo that will work well for your purposes. They’re mostly geared toward USPSA.

Dryfire every day taking notes of what you learn and how you’re progressing. Live fire once a week at 25 yards using a timer to simulate rapid fire. This will minimize ammo cost and maximize learning.

Stay focused on the front sight and good things will come.

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Post by Soupy44 Fri May 27, 2022 7:58 am

+1 on starting with a 22. You can shoot the whole 2700 with a 22 if you want. Then you can shoot the 22EIC and borrow a Service Pistol. Practices will be cheaper, no reloading until you're ready.

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Post by WSR32 Fri May 27, 2022 8:32 am

You are starting from a good place. Match, gun, and ammo choices are all interrelated. Starting with knowing what match you want to shoot will save you heart ache.

Be sure you know the specific rules your local match adheres too. I made the mistake of reading the rules posted for the local combat match and bought what I thought would be a pistol that would both fit the match and my preferences. This was during match hiatus due to pandemic/range overhaul. When we went back to shooting matches I turned up with a 1911 w/ a dot and was persona non grata. Most everyone did not care but apparently some people do 🙄.

Finally on reloads. Even in the current ammo environment with the difficulty finding components reloading is still a good value proposition. I recently got pushed into it and found by my 1k round the equipment will be paid for and there out I will be able to produce quality 45 ammo for about 25c a round. That makes shooting cf very reasonable.

100 rds of practice/match rds a week and you will have paid for the reloading equipment in 10 weeks.

Now 45 is cheaper to shoot than 9mm. Does that change your pistol options? Just a different perspective.

Miguel

WSR32

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Post by TargetPistolGuy Fri May 27, 2022 8:53 am

WSR32 wrote:
100 rds of practice/match rds a week and you will have paid for the reloading equipment in 10 weeks.

Miguel

For another perspective:

This is only true if the OP values his time at a rate less than he can save. (Commercial cost per round - reload cost per round) * rounds per hour able to produce. Otherwise he’s losing value every minute he spends reloading.

IMO, the dogma that all serious shooters should reload (in environments where offerings are available) is really only true for those with a significant amount of leisure time. Even more so for those who are learning the sport. Parents of small kids, professionals, middle aged would be much happier if they just bought commercial ammo according to their budget and dry fired to make up the difference.

And of course, time spent reloading makes you a better reloader. Not a better shooter.

One man’s opinion.

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Post by chiz1180 Fri May 27, 2022 9:16 am

TargetPistolGuy wrote:This is only true if the OP values his time at a rate less than he can save.  (Commercial cost per round - reload cost per round) * rounds per hour able to produce.  Otherwise he’s losing value every minute he spends reloading.  

IMO, the dogma that all serious shooters should reload (in environments where offerings are available) is really only true for those with a significant amount of leisure time.  Even more so for those who are learning the sport.  Parents of small kids, professionals, middle aged would be much happier if they just bought commercial ammo according to their budget and dry fired to make up the difference.  
Related to this, sometimes life gets busy. I reload, but in the last few months between work and other obligations having time to reload has been an issue, I can't reload if I am travelling for work. In the case of 45, the commercial availability of match quality ammo is almost zero. As of writing you can not buy loaded 45 from Roze or Aysm, however Atlanta has a "soft ball load" (which may or may not suit your needs). In 9mm your options open up significantly and can be found about 30% less cost. 

As far as any advantage in 45 over 9mm in bullet diameter, if your fundamentals are solid you can put up solid scores with either caliber.
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Post by WSR32 Fri May 27, 2022 11:23 am

Speaking to the choir. I have a 3-year-old a 1-year-old and one more on the way. Plus I run a business. Time is generally not something I have an excess of. But bullseye and reloading is a good way to me to have cathartic destress time which in turn keeps me productive. But largely you're right. 😁😉

Also I'm probably a glutton for punishment...😜

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Post by Froneck Fri May 27, 2022 3:42 pm

I would agree with Jon! The 1911 in 45ACP is the gun to get. First you are limited to the number of service matches you can shoot for the year. Yes you can shoot more but the scores will not count. But there is no limit to the number of NRA matches so if you want practice for Service Pistol shoot NRA with 4 pound trigger and Iron sights.
 AMU would rather use the 1911 .45ACP for Service Pistol but was told they had to use the 9mm by the Commanding Officer. Later when the CMP allowed the 1911 in 9mm to be used in service Pistol they used it.
 I would recommend getting the 1911 in 45ACP as the first centerfire gun

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Post by Arthur Fri May 27, 2022 9:48 pm

My interest is primarily CMP EIC Service Pistol. I'm shooting a Colt Gold cup receiver with a Nelson .22 conversion, and a Springfield RO in .45. Bought the Gold Cup first and it wasn't accurate enough for Bullseye. Mistake. Got the RO after and it's capable of high 80s low 90s (really good days) at 50 yd. with me behind it. Both guns have trigger jobs, nothing else. Have gotten EIC points with both guns. 
Maybe, buy a RO, pro trigger job and bushing if needed. Then a Nelson .22 conversion if you can afford. Same trigger for everything, minimum cost. 
Agree with the comments on getting good with the .22 first. If you can't get it right with the .22 a .45 isn't going to go better. 
Shoot the 2700s, its the best practice you can get. Keep in mind that you need a .45 to shoot the .45 portion. Just shooting the EIC matches will not get you there. 

Good luck!!,

Best regards, 
Arthur

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Post by rich.tullo Sat May 28, 2022 1:41 pm

Here is an Idea, Is a M25 on the list then you could revolver and service pistol. 

Otherwise you can just get a 45acp and get it set up for BE. 

I have 2 RO's and I love them once they are all sorted out.
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Post by hengehold Sat May 28, 2022 7:16 pm

UnGe wrote:I am pretty new to anything above .22, and wanted to try something bigger, starting with CMP EIC (not really ready for going 2700 with current ammo prices and no desire to do reloading yet).
What would be a good beginner service pistol for a .22 SS? Based on factory ammo prices, probably 9mm, but I am open to other options.
I'd like to try something least expensive but still decent (mostly - more or less decent trigger out of the box, and adjustable sights)
Any advise?
To the OP, I went through similar decisions as I decided to get into the BE discipline about 4 years ago. Here are the steps I took:

1. Read the list of approved pistols to use as a “service pistol” in the CMP rule book. Liked some of the Sig pistols but decided that the 1911 has the greatest long term, top-end potential because a lot of smiths are able to work on them and accurize them. 

 2. Bought a used Springfield Armory, Range Officer 1911 in 9mm. (Approx $750).  9mm seemed like the obvious start because I did not reload for pistol at the time and it is cheaper to buy 9mm than 45. Also, I assumed 9mm would have less recoil. 

3. Sent the pistol to a smith for a barrel and bushing replacement, and trigger job ($600). Gun probably shot well from the factory but I did this for peace of mind. Trigger was already pretty good from the factory. 

4. After tuning gun with recoil springs I still felt recoil was a bit snappy. Shot a friend’s complete accurized Beretta M9 and it was also a bit snappy. Shot a friends 1911 in 45 with 185gr hand loads and it was surprisingly much more pleasant to shoot. 

5. Sold the 1911 9mm and looked for a Range Officer 1911 in 45 acp. Found one for $750 on-line. 

6. Picked up a used progressive press and reload 45 acp for really cheap. 

If you are hell bent on the 9mm then you will probably do best with a Springfield Range Officer 1911. If you eventually want to accurize it for low cost you could even buy a couple tools and do some work on it yourself. 

Perhaps a second choice may be the Sig 320 in 9mm. The trigger is the serialized firearm and you can swap the grip size for one that best fits your hand. The trigger is not to bad out of the box.  

Good luck,
-TH

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Post by Froneck Sat May 28, 2022 8:36 pm

I also did as the OP, purchased a Gold Cup for NRA shooting only to find it was not accurate enough out of the box. Fred Kart took it and did an accuracy job on it. While I waited I purchased another 1911 and had it accurized for BE. When I got the Gold Cup it was a tack driver and having iron sights used it for EIC competition. Needed to have the front sight silver soldered in due to the staked in version coming out. Did the solder job myself. Rear sight was a problem too so I replaced it with the last replacement sight Bomar had for the Gold Cup (according to Bomar) because the pin broke in the original. You can then shoot great with the Gold Cup, then slide on the conversion and shoot .22 EIC matches. So soldering in the front sight, replacing the read sight and having the pistol accurized will probably be cheaper than buying another pistol that has accuracy needed for EIC competition! My best EIC score with my Gold Cup after it was worked on was 285 using issued Army ammo at Perry. Now that the CMP is allowing other than 230gr.full ball ammo the rear sight may not need replacement.

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Post by chiz1180 Sat May 28, 2022 9:09 pm

So I have a service pistol match coming up, I have two options a 1911 in 45 and a Springfield XDm 5.25 in 9mm. The targets below were shot back to back rapid fire pace with turning targets. End of the day with a good shot process it does not matter what caliber you shoot, both will do the job.


Service Pistol advise - Page 2 Img_1610
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Post by Froneck Sat May 28, 2022 9:45 pm

Any accurate gun will work! BUT keeping the guns used the same for all matches is better than using different types. I did the same as others in the attempt to shoot great, purchased guns with great accuracy. Until I was introduced to a few Top Shooting Masters (High Master Class was not a class back then) I was told to dump the other guns and use the 1911 for everything. I did and went from Marksman to Master in one year! You still see the attempt to do that, .22 conversion and same frame gun being used for all matches, even the High end .22 such as Pardini and AW93 have 1911 grip adapters being made. I posted some great targets that Adam shot with the XDM, 9mm, it's a good gun! But Adam uses the 1911 for all Bullseye matches and a Hammerli that the AMU altered so that it feels like a 1911. You would have to look close to see it's a Hammerli! Quick glace would have you think it was a 1911!. Having a AW93, MatchGun 2 and other .22s  I purchased a Nelson and am making my own .22 conversion so as to keep the one frame in my hand, yes my AW has 1911 grips on it. I posted photos in other topics. The OP would be better keeping to the one gun frame, if he wants to shoot sub caliber (I don't recommend it) but the 1911 in 9mm would be the best choice modified for Bullseye accuracy.

Froneck

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Post by MarkF45 Mon May 30, 2022 1:47 pm

Everybody on this thread gave excellent advice for SOMEBODY ELSE.

The OP asked about 22 pistols, and you told him all about 45's and 9's (SIG P210, really?). You are far better off starting with a 22 than a centerfire pistol. The ammo is cheaper, the recoil is negliable, and you don't have to reload. You can learn everything you need to know about sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through, and mental training with a 22. You can shoot all-22 2700's.

The best 22 to start with is a Ruger 22/45 Mark IV. Do not get a Mark III or earlier, no matter how good a deal you might find on a used one. You can upgrade it as you go along. Or if you find you don't like this sport, you can sell it, and not be out too much money.

I suggest waiting till after you make Distinguished 22, to get a centerfire pistol. Then 1911/45 would be the way to go.

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Post by Froneck Mon May 30, 2022 3:56 pm

MarkF45, UnGe's opening statement was "I am pretty new to anything above .22, and wanted to try something bigger, starting with CMP EIC" Later he posted "Main reason why I asked this question - I am going to start working on distinguished for 22, and matches are usually going together, so I'd rather stay for service pistol too (yes, being mostly just a crowd for somebody's else points). Most probably I'll be able to just borrow a gun for a match, but it is better to have my own."
 So providing information on "something bigger" has everyone responding to his request except you.
 Simply put he is as you suggested is working on  Distinguished .22 but wanting to compete while at the match in Service Pistol. Something most have us have done being it was a 2700. Back when .22 Distinguished Match wasn't yet started. Most of us then shot service pistol with 1911 using issued 230gr Ball ammo.
 I think he is correct, attention will be toward .22 Distinguished but getting experience with the Service Pistol while at competition having both. Having his own Service Pistol is also a good idea, he can dry fire it, learn about it, when time and funds are available have it up-graded to a tack driver needed for Service Pistol!

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