Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

+10
tovaert
rich.tullo
chiz1180
Jon Eulette
Tripscape
bruce martindale
Rich/WIS
BE Mike
james r chapman
L. Boscoe
14 posters

Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by L. Boscoe 8/11/2022, 2:29 pm

The requirement for a minimum trigger pull is probably related to the Army, would be my first guess.
Only my 1911's meet the 3.5# requirement. Heck, I have a 9mm CZ shadow that is most likely 1.5#,
what a gunsmith called a "race gun", whatever that is.  You can certainly nail your targets in timed fire
with it, you just have to think "fire" and a shot will break.  Not a weapon to be used outside of a range
for sure, but it is fun to shoot.
Anyhow, how did we settle on what is a fairly strong trigger pull?

L. Boscoe

Posts : 223
Join date : 2022-08-07
Age : 87

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by james r chapman 8/11/2022, 5:49 pm

I think it related to the 1911 trigger design.
If too light the sear wouldn’t catch an it could go full auto.
The old guns I think had steel trigger which could also bounce off a sear.

And I think JB wanted it that way.
james r chapman
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 6101
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan

knightimac and rich.tullo like this post

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by BE Mike 8/12/2022, 7:20 am

I don't know about the 3.5# pull, but the 4# pull comes directly from the Army. The minimum safety standard for a trigger pull for the 1911 was 4# which came from their manual. As a side comment, I have to say that I never recall a 1911 with a 3.5# trigger going full auto at a match.
BE Mike
BE Mike

Posts : 2470
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Indiana

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Rich/WIS 8/12/2022, 9:48 am

Think it has to do with the sear being knocked off the hammer when the slide goes into battery.

Rich/WIS

Posts : 85
Join date : 2014-07-01

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty trigger pull weight

Post by bruce martindale 8/12/2022, 10:53 am

BE Mike wrote:I don't know about the 3.5# pull, but the 4# pull comes directly from the Army. The minimum safety standard for a trigger pull for the 1911 was 4# which came from their manual. As a side comment, I have to say that I never recall a 1911 with a 3.5# trigger going full auto at a match.

I've seen it from a high level experienced shooter, and it's fast. Clean pants for all and days over for competitor.

bruce martindale

Posts : 1627
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Upstate NY

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t20747-feeling-center-a-10-bullsey

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Tripscape 8/12/2022, 1:52 pm

Not really. 2011 is virtually same as 1911 but in double stack frame, used in fast shooting competitiins where CZ's are used as well. Those 2011's are sub 2lb triggers and no issues. It has a lot to do with proper geometry of sear-hammer engagement.

Tripscape

Posts : 832
Join date : 2019-03-23

mpolans likes this post

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Jon Eulette 8/12/2022, 2:14 pm

3-1/2# does not always equal 3-1/2#!!!
Good trigger job vs. liability trigger job.
Jon
Jon Eulette
Jon Eulette

Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by chiz1180 8/12/2022, 3:12 pm

To further expand on what Jon mentioned. If your trigger job is good, you don’t notice the weight.

This game has been around with basically the same rules for over 100 years, and the course of fire has never been cleaned. You show up to more modern style matches (action stuff, glock matches, ect.) with no minimum trigger weight, the winner is determined by x count or equivalent.
chiz1180
chiz1180

Posts : 1246
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio

orpheoet likes this post

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by rich.tullo 8/13/2022, 1:57 pm

bruce martindale wrote:
BE Mike wrote:I don't know about the 3.5# pull, but the 4# pull comes directly from the Army. The minimum safety standard for a trigger pull for the 1911 was 4# which came from their manual. As a side comment, I have to say that I never recall a 1911 with a 3.5# trigger going full auto at a match.

I've seen it from a high level experienced shooter, and it's fast. Clean pants for all and days over for competitor.
I’ve seen it twice not fun when it goes full full or no I recently had a bad Sear spring about 30,000 rounds on this particular spring and it started to double on me and so I don’t think I could’ve set that C spring to 4 pounds I barely made 3 pounds weight and when I checked it at home after a double that was right about 2 pounds
rich.tullo
rich.tullo

Posts : 1919
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by L. Boscoe 8/13/2022, 7:32 pm

turns out the trigger pull is not the problem with full auto-the disconnector is what prevents full auto.  This from a master armorer with 30 plus years building
1911's and who now makes custom 1911's for the $4000 market.  He was Sgt Major in the Army, state pistol champ and who knows what else.  I take his word.

L. Boscoe

Posts : 223
Join date : 2022-08-07
Age : 87

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Jon Eulette 8/13/2022, 8:10 pm

L. Boscoe wrote:turns out the trigger pull is not the problem with full auto-the disconnector is what prevents full auto.  This from a master armorer with 30 plus years building
1911's and who now makes custom 1911's for the $4000 market.  He was Sgt Major in the Army, state pistol champ and who knows what else.  I take his word.
Full automatic cycling of 1911 can be several things. Sear wear, sear spring pressure, hammer full cock wear, extremely dirty pistol, as well as some other issues. Disconnector only disconnects the disconnector from making contact with the bottom legs on the sear under normal firing conditions. Most common cause of full automatic fire I’ve seen is related to improper sear spring set up.
Jon
Jon Eulette
Jon Eulette

Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

BE Mike likes this post

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by tovaert 8/14/2022, 7:44 am

Is it not possible to setup (safely) a 1911 with a 2.5#+ trigger pull (as in a CF gun)? My impression is that the .38 1911's and SW 52 are in that pull weight range. I'm referring to my 9mm 1911. Specifically it has a C&S super light sear and ultra-match hammer; and EGW ball-end disconnector and enhanced sear spring. Are there better component choices for what I'm looking to do?

tovaert

Posts : 427
Join date : 2018-11-28

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by mpolans 8/14/2022, 1:57 pm

tovaert wrote:Is it not possible to setup (safely) a 1911 with a 2.5#+ trigger pull (as in a CF gun)? My impression is that the .38 1911's and SW 52 are in that pull weight range. I'm referring to my 9mm 1911. Specifically it has a C&S super light sear and ultra-match hammer; and EGW ball-end disconnector and enhanced sear spring. Are there better component choices for what I'm looking to do?
For a decent gunsmith, easily. Lots of folks in the USPSA/Steel Challenge world are shooting 1911s/2011s with 1.75lb trigger pulls.

mpolans

Posts : 606
Join date : 2016-05-27

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by james r chapman 8/14/2022, 5:10 pm

https://www.brownells.com/guntech/2-lb-trigger-pull/detail.htm?lid=10297
james r chapman
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 6101
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Slamfire 8/21/2022, 2:08 pm

It is never a good assumption to assume that those making the rules are somehow enlightened and knowledgeable about the rules they set, the mechanisms on the firing line,  nor the subsequent troubles they cause with ill informed rules.  I have lived through decades of NRA rules and have come to the conclusion that the rules committee makes bad and inexplicable decisions. And that the gravitas of the rules committee has been on a consistent decline.

I believe trigger pulls are based on pre WW1 legacy systems without any consideration for modernity. Most certainly back in the day, when 1911’s were built of these materials.

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? PeiHoiv

 
anything less than a four pound trigger, worn sear surfaces, maybe sear bounce,  was likely to create hammer follow. And, given the fixed sear leverages of issue 1911’s, there was very limited ability to have a safe, light trigger. 

The last military 1911 was built somewhere around 1945, and these antiques are too expensive to justify chopping one up to make a match 1911. And there is no reason to, as modern match pistols exist in quantity, and they will stay tight for orders of magnitude longer than any of the classic gunsmith built WW2 1911’s.  Or for that matter, old post war Colts.  You do know that the older 1911’s, the frame rails were peened, and then the slide, with a liberal slathering of grinding compound in the recesses, was beat back and forth till just the right amount of material was ground off to give smooth operation and no rattling!.  (Even series 80 Colts rattled when new!) This worked till the dead soft rails wore out, as surface case was removed in the process. And the receiver was not necessarily heat treated.  Modern pistols are machined to tolerances on CNC machinery that are just incomprehensible when compared to the old single stage, human operated production equipment. And the materials are vastly better to the plain carbon steels used in WW2.

Given modern materials that are hard all the way through and have great wear resistance, if the manufacturer makes changes to lever angles, I consider adherence to some  a WW1 trigger pull requirement to be nonsensical and out of touch. The rules are most probably based on same old, same old,  and some nostalgia of the past.  I am glad the 1911 rules do not require a flint and pan.  You know, someone was fighting for the retention of the flint and frizzen!

    “As always, Cavalry’s motto must remain: When better roller skates are made, Cavalry horses will wear them.”

Major General John Herr, last Chief of Cavalry
 
I looked at the rules of USPSA:

USPSA Competition Rules

https://uspsa.org/viewer/USPSA-Competition-Rules-Sep-2021.pdf

Appendix D

5.1.4 Unless required by a Division (see Appendix D),  there is no restriction on the trigger pull weight of a firearm, however, the trigger mechanism must, at all times, function safely

This is what sense to me, is the trigger mechanically safe. If the trigger is mechanically safe then it is up to the competitor to figure out what trigger weight best suits his paw. Finger sensitivity varies by person.  I can say, when trigger get very light, the competitor puts himself at risk of sending a shot down range and not necessarily into the target. So in a way, trigger pull weight is self compensating. Too light and someone’s score goes down range along with the errantly fired bullet.

Slamfire

Posts : 223
Join date : 2016-04-18

RoyDean likes this post

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Froneck 8/23/2022, 11:44 am

When looking at the drawings of the 1911 sear there is no secondary angle. That angle was probably developed by gunsmiths to adjust trigger pull. That secondary angle is a problem in that it shortens sear engagement and possibly causes the sear to skip the half-cock notch that it should catch if trigger is not pulled when disconnectore is set or hammer pulled and disconnector is disengaged.
 I don't know where the 3.5 Lb rule came from but it maybe have come from some testing by the NRA because it is an NRA match requirement and since the CMP is now running NRA type matches they to adopted the weight requirement. I know quite a few that use the 1911 in police style matches that have no trigger weight requirement and don't have problems if the gun is set-up properly.

Froneck

Posts : 1651
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 76

Slamfire likes this post

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by rich.tullo 8/23/2022, 3:30 pm

Secondary Angle was invented to reduce creep as the sear rotates off the hammer hooks the relief edge reduces friction. I believe the 3.5 was decided back in the day when they used 200gn lead as opposed to 230 ball. 

I have a 22lr pull down to 1.5 before the hammer started to follow and then adjusted the sear spring up to 2.4 lbs.
rich.tullo
rich.tullo

Posts : 1919
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Wobbley 8/23/2022, 7:14 pm

Well, what are we gonna do about all those “old” 1911s out there now?  Mine was built using a Series 70 slide on a “Pre70” frame. Do I get a 3.5 pound pull while new fangled CNC build “Gucci-guns” get a 2.5 pound trigger?  I don’t know exactly where the 3.5 trigger came from. Nor do I care.  It’s a part of the game we play
Wobbley
Wobbley
Admin

Posts : 4571
Join date : 2015-02-12

knightimac and Dan Webb like this post

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Slamfire 8/24/2022, 2:05 pm

Wobbley wrote:Well, what are we gonna do about all those “old” 1911s out there now?  Mine was built using a Series 70 slide on a “Pre70” frame. Do I get a 3.5 pound pull while new fangled CNC build “Gucci-guns” get a 2.5 pound trigger?  I don’t know exactly where the 3.5 trigger came from. Nor do I care.  It’s a part of the game we play

Like the dinosaurs, those old, hand crafted Colts are going the way of the Dinosaurs. The really good guys in my area are buying factory Rock River Bullseye Wadcutters guaranteed to shoot 1.5 inches at 50 yards, or similar. I am using a Les Baer wadcutter, an amazingly tight and well built pistol.

I was shooting highpower when the best rifle was a bolt gun on a Rem 700 or Win M70, built by a gunsmith. What I found was the custom gunsmith gave fast service on the first rifle, there after, as they got to know you, they sat on your weapons and a two year turnaround was not uncommon.  I was very happy when reliable and accurate match grade AR15's were developed as I did not have to nag some custom gunsmith about when my rifle would be finished.

I am sure the situation is similar with custom pistol smiths. I will take a great production pistol now, than some custom pistol whenever.

Slamfire

Posts : 223
Join date : 2016-04-18

Back to top Go down

Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from? Empty Re: Where did the 3.5# trigger requirement come from?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum