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How can this be EIC legal???

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randy86314
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mbmshooter
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8eightring
Rodger Barthlow
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How can this be EIC legal??? Empty How can this be EIC legal???

Post by NukeMMC Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:12 pm

In the quest for my final 10 Service Pistol leg points (my first 20 were from the early 90s), I decided to chase the rabbit down a hole and bought a 9mm Range Officer.
How can this be EIC legal??? 20220615

Then I decided to have it converted to 38super.  I shot a 38supercomp Open pistol in USPSA and absolutely loved the reliability of feeding that rimless, long-ish brass in the 1911 platform.  Off to Jon Eulette it went.  A KKM 0.355" 1:16" twist tube got fitted, trigger job done, slide needed just a smidge of tightening and back it came.  A NukeMMC stippling job and it was good to go.  Initially I ran it with 115gr HAP bullets and 5.2gr of 231 to loosen it up and have good accuracy at 50yds.
How can this be EIC legal??? 20230622

About that time, CMP decided to change rules on me and allow lead bullets.  SO I chased that rabbit just a bit deeper ... bought some 125 and 150gr SWCs.  Hmmm ... a 0.356" 150gr Brazos SWC with 3.2gr of Titegroup or 3.0gr of Bullseye was quite pleasant in sustained fire.  Well shoot ... seems to me 148gr isn't far from 150gr ... and 0.358" isn't far from 0.356".  If my Ed Brown magazines release the round late enough to guide into the chamber but soon enough to not be cock-eyed on entry in the chamber, maybe I could use some of these H&G 50 wadcutters I have laying around ... 

So a little loading was done.  I have 24 loose pieces of Starline 38sc brass.  4 got loaded with 3.0gr of Titegroup.  20 got 2.7gr of Bullseye (gee ... sounds like a 38 special load Wink).
How can this be EIC legal??? 20230623

Cycled them thru the pistol by hand.  Since these bullets were designed for semi-auto 38spl shooting, this shouldn't be a surprise.  All went thru just fine, so let's give it a go.

Shot them at 25yds today.  Here's my 2nd 2 mags of the 2.7gr BE load in a TF cadence.  I think if I can get these bullets sized to 0.356" and tune the load a bit, this answers any need to try and fight a 38spl 1911 build and locating the uber-expensive magazines.  The Ed Brown 38super mags are $28.  This load doesn't quite lock the slide back, but it completely cycles.  Another 0.1 or 0.2gr and we're in business. 
How can this be EIC legal??? 20230624

Does it shoot soft?  You tell me ...
https://youtu.be/zVbbf-pu1NE

So now this is a CMP EIC legal service pistol that is essentially a 38spl wadcutter, only 1/8" shorter and significantly less expensive.

Hey Jon ... What do you think about a frame-mounted dot with this setup?
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Post by NukeMMC Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:28 pm

Now for a name for this pistol/ammo combo .....

38supercutter?
38superwad?
38superspecial?
38frankensuper?
38NukEulette?
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Post by james r chapman Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:44 pm

Frame mount dot won’t be legal till 2026. drunken
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Post by KBarth Tue Jun 27, 2023 4:53 pm

How does it shoot at 50?
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Post by NukeMMC Tue Jun 27, 2023 5:11 pm

KBarth wrote:How does it shoot at 50?
Going to find out after I get a tuned and soft load that is accurate enough at 25 with amazing recoil recovery.  My 115HAP loads shoot 10 ring at 50 off the bench, so they do better than me.
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Post by Merick Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:52 pm

james r chapman wrote:Frame mount dot won’t be legal till 2026. drunken

and by then there will be only 3 matches with enough participants to award a hard leg. How can this be EIC legal??? 1f62a

Anyhow I've long suspected 38 super could be downloaded to rival 38 special wadcutters if someone took the time to work out all the details.

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Post by Jon Eulette Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:45 pm

I’ve built four 38 Supers this year. Very easy to get to shoot jacketed bullets well. I’ve seen a 20 shot group with home cast bullets loaded with 2.8 BE. Held X for 20 shots! You have to have an EXCELLENT lead bullet to group at 50 yds. 2.8 BE 150 lswc kicks slightly harder than 38 Special 148 hbwc. I need to chronograph them side by side.
I’ve enjoyed the 38 Supers so much lately I’m going to rebarrel my 9mm to 38 Super.
Jon
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Post by bruce martindale Wed Jun 28, 2023 4:10 pm

Your factory RO could feed w/c shells….mine did.

They stuck out of a Federal case but worked

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Post by Wobbley Wed Jun 28, 2023 4:42 pm

For a while, I contemplated loading 148 Plated WC bullets in 38 Short Colt for EIC matches. The bullets would have been seated out to regular flush seated WC length so they would have nominally functioned.  Never got to it as the rules were never clear that such a load in a 52 would have been legal.  Now, I see no reason not to try and this is evidence it can work for the 52.
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Post by Jon Eulette Wed Jun 28, 2023 5:08 pm

I wouldn’t do it. The short case is approximately 0.390 shorter. Your bullets will lead the front of the chamber during feeding; lead ring. You don’t have a case mouth supporting your bullet, you’ll have bullet lying directly on the chamber/rifling lead.
Might work at 25, but doubtful it’ll hole repair center at 50.
Prove me wrong Smile
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Post by NukeMMC Wed Jun 28, 2023 6:44 pm

Loaded 50rds each of the HG50 (weighs 141.3-141.7) with a heavy 2.8gr BE and Brazos 150 SWC (150.3-150.7) with right at 2.8gr of BE.  The HG50 loads are 1.022-1.024" OAL, 0.955" to the shoulder.  The 150SWC are 1.206-1.213" OAL, 0.925" to shoulder.

More "speramintin to follow.
How can this be EIC legal??? 20230625
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Post by Orion Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:26 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I’ve built four 38 Supers this year. Very easy to get to shoot jacketed bullets well. I’ve seen a 20 shot group with home cast bullets loaded with 2.8 BE. Held X for 20 shots! You have to have an EXCELLENT lead bullet to group at 50 yds. 2.8 BE 150 lswc kicks slightly harder than 38 Special 148 hbwc. I need to chronograph them side by side.
I’ve enjoyed the 38 Supers so much lately I’m going to rebarrel my 9mm to 38 Super.
Jon

Where do you gain shooting a 38 Super vs a 9mm? I don’t know much about 38 Super, but understand the cartage is very similar.
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Post by Jon Eulette Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:22 pm

I base a lot of my information on 9mm and 38 Super from customer and fellow shooter feedback.
9mm needs new brass to shoot it’s best at 50 yds and typically only jacketed bullets perform really well. 1050 + fps is necessary to group in the 1” range at 50 yds. Lead bullets haven’t shown good results majority of the time. Down loading 9mm to reduced velocities does not perform well at 50.

38 Super does/can shoot well with both lead and jacketed bullets. It also performs well with reduced loads. Really good lead bullets are required to get excellent groups at 50 yds. It can be downloaded to 38 Special wadcutter velocities and shoots excellent.
I think finding excellent lead bullets will be the hardest part, because building a tack driver is the easy part.



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Post by WesG Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:58 pm

I came to the conclusion, based on what I've read, the 9mm needs a higher pressure load for the short stiff case to expand and seal the chamber well.

38 Super looks like another fun thing to play with.

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Post by Rodger Barthlow Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:30 am

The 38 Super is more forgiving than the .38 Spl 50yds.
I had Dave Salyer build me one when I couldn't get my Colt 1911 38 wad gun to shoot well at 50yds.
Felt recoil with 147gr SWC was very similar to the M52. 
Mine has a slide mount and cycles reliably. 
For bullets I cast my own 147gr swc.
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Post by 8eightring Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:05 pm

Those HG 50 wadcutters look like they take up a LOT of space in the 38 Super case. Have you run into any pressure problems using them in 38 Super?
Also, I am wondering what recoil spring weight you are using?
I have a Lyman 38 caliber mold that casts similar bullets. I am just a little intimidated on putting them in a  38 Super case and launching thing them off.
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Post by NukeMMC Fri Jun 30, 2023 11:21 pm

At 2.7-2.9gr of Bullseye, it's FAR from a stout load.
Also, the Brazos 150gr SWC has 0.420" of bearing length seated in the case, the HG50 has 0.450". Here's a better pic showing how close they are in bearing length. A 125gr with 0.360" of bearing length on the right.
How can this be EIC legal??? 20230626
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Post by 8eightring Sun Jul 02, 2023 4:16 pm

Have you tried any soft swaged 38 full wadcutters in the Super with 2.7 Bullseye?
I am thinking---------
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Post by PacFltShooter Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:33 pm

So NukeMMC, tell another swabby what recoil spring weight you are using.
This is interesting to me.  Thanks for the research.
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Post by mbmshooter Tue Jul 11, 2023 11:08 pm

Wobbley wrote:For a while, I contemplated loading 148 Plated WC bullets in 38 Short Colt for EIC matches. The bullets would have been seated out to regular flush seated WC length so they would have nominally functioned.  Never got to it as the rules were never clear that such a load in a 52 would have been legal.  Now, I see no reason not to try and this is evidence it can work for the 52.


I've had multiple discussions with Henderson over the years about the gradual dilution (in my opinion) of the Distinguished Badge as a result of the many changes to the equipment and ammo.  I won't go into the many specifics with which I have issues but, interestingly, the S&W52 was the topic of a recent discussion.
Bottom line: Hendo said the EIC approved pistols MUST be or have been ISSUED FIREARMS by a government agency.  Since the 52 has never been an ISSUED pistol, it would not be legal to use for EIC.
Jim also made it clear that it is CMPs desire to make all of these competitions more inviting to ALL shooters so I wouldn't be surprised to see the 52 approved some time in the future.  Again, just my opinion!

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Post by lonegunman Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:16 am

Its legal according to the 26th edition of the rule book.  In order to drive up participation, you must remove all of the skill from matches so that any loser can show up with any gun under the sun and still get a participation prize.  

I legged 20 years ago, then you could shoot soft ball 9mm or 45 at the short line.  There had to be changes since the CMP no longer provided or supplied ammo and that was the change.  I had bought a can of 1970's match ball and was using that to leg.  I wanted to do it the old fashioned way with a match grade Ed Masaki ball gun and full power ball ammunition.  I did it.

The rules specifically say 38 Special/9mm to 45ACP for service revolvers on page 36 section 4.1.3 (b)   And 4.1 (b) for Service Pistols 9x19mm or 45 ACP only.  Any ammunition is apparently acceptable these days.
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Post by NukeMMC Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:14 am

PacFltShooter wrote:So NukeMMC, tell another swabby what recoil spring weight you are using.
This is interesting to me.  Thanks for the research.
Pretty sure it's 9 or 10# with a 19# main
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Post by Jon Eulette Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:19 am

NukeMMC wrote:
PacFltShooter wrote:So NukeMMC, tell another swabby what recoil spring weight you are using.
This is interesting to me.  Thanks for the research.
Pretty sure it's 9 or 10# with a 19# main
10#
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Post by PacFltShooter Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:03 am

Thanks Jon and NukeMMC. I have a SA Ronin that’s just begging me to make it a 38 Super.
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Post by randy86314 Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:04 pm

This should be an easy answer. What is permitted by CMP rules?
Do the rules permit only 9mm para and 45ACP?  M1911 and Beretta 92?

The OP is all over the map about cartridges and bullets. IMHO, the problem with the 38 Special in a semi-auto is the BULLET, not the rimmed case. If round nose or JHP bullets fit in the mag and cycles, there's another answer!
The 38 Special WC in a pistol is notoriously sensitive to follow-thru at 50 yards.

If CMP permits any mild cartridge, then the prestige of the Dist badge will be seriously diminished.

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