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loading data honesty

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james r chapman
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Post by Eindecker 7/29/2023, 10:59 am

how do you really believe the loading data these days for wadcutters in the holy 38 or 357?

the alliant 96 manual has nonsensical "wadcutter" and target wadcutter" designations,  that are actually somewhat easy to interpret by chamber pressure,  30,000 cup/psi is OK for a DEWC   NOT for a HBWC... 

But for other places, lyman books actualy show a picture of what is always solid base,  others seem to be a hodgpodge of combined loads. 

Why

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Post by PhotoEscape 7/29/2023, 11:09 am

I hit that "iceberg" with data from VV website for 32 S&W Long.  It called for 1.7 - 1.9 gr of VV N310, and I foolishly went right to the top charge trying to determine if I want to shoot this caliber.  Lesson learned (once again!).  The only answer is, - your own testing starting with less than minimal recommended charge.  However, IMO, there are trusted sources, and data published on this forum is a good data!

AP
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Post by james r chapman 7/29/2023, 11:11 am

Don’t all manuals warn to use starting charges?
Or reduce listed by 10% to start?
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Post by Wobbley 7/29/2023, 11:16 am

Lyman has always featured lead bullets from their molds.  None of these were hollow base Wadcutters.  There were/are some loads for HBWC in 357 cases, but not many.  One I did find was in an old Winchester data pamphlet was 3.4 231 giving 16000 psi.  I personally loaded some Speer HBWC in 357 cases using 4.5 Unique some years ago.  No issues with performance, but I found no advantage over 38 Special brass loaded with 3.5 Unique, so I discontinued the practice.
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Post by 8eightring 7/29/2023, 11:33 am

I tried some of the loads on here with 38 cal. 148 grain HBWC. I ended up with two holes in the target with every round fire. I was blowing the shirts off the bullets.
Approach all reloading data with caution.
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Post by james r chapman 7/29/2023, 3:06 pm

What loads?
2.7 bullseye?
3.1 ww231?
2.8 wst????
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Post by Eindecker 7/29/2023, 3:21 pm

some loads just dont match, even for basic translation.. everywhere lists 3 grains red dot as max for 148 hbwc in 38 special.  yet the 96 alliant manual puts 2.8 grains as max.. 

very little to denote hollow base from solid base in the actual load data these days. its rather odd

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Post by dannyd93140 7/29/2023, 3:25 pm

Today, instead of buying a manual just go to the manufacturer's website and get the latest data.
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Post by PhotoEscape 7/29/2023, 5:28 pm

dannyd93140 wrote:Today, instead of buying a manual just go to the manufacturer's website and get the latest data.
Please re-read my earlier post on this thread.  At least on one occasion manufacturers data was wrong.  I suspect, there are others.

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Post by Wobbley 7/29/2023, 5:53 pm

Eindecker wrote:some loads just dont match, even for basic translation.. everywhere lists 3 grains red dot as max for 148 hbwc in 38 special.  yet the 96 alliant manual puts 2.8 grains as max.. 

very little to denote hollow base from solid base in the actual load data these days. its rather odd
From my experiments with Red Dot in 38 Special,HBWC reloads I would use current data and never exceed 2.9 grains.  I had a friend check these Red Dot loads in Quickload, and the 2.9 grains load was at SAAMI max for standard 38 Special Ammo.  I also checked with an Allianz technician and the current RedDot is slightly different that the Oder pre-1990 made RedDot.  It’s similar enough in shotguns where it’s intended for use, fpbut the current lots are just a bit hotter in pistol.  See my chrono results below.  The gun used was a 10 inch Thompson-Contender.loading data honesty Img_1011
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Post by dannyd93140 7/29/2023, 6:59 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:
dannyd93140 wrote:Today, instead of buying a manual just go to the manufacturer's website and get the latest data.
Please re-read my earlier post on this thread.  At least on one occasion manufacturers data was wrong.  I suspect, there are others.

AP
Sorry, I don't use that powder, but the Hodgdon website has worked for me and their data is on the mark.
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Post by fc60 7/29/2023, 7:57 pm

Greetings,

One method for load development is this...

Buy a box of commercial ammo you want to duplicate. WadCutter, FMJ, SemiWadcutter, etc...

Chronograph ten rounds out of your gun to get an average.

Now, load your own with a bullet that is as close to the factory one that you can get.

Adjust the powder until you match the velocity of the commercial ammo.

Bear in mind the reloading books are not always geared toward Bullseye shooters.

The old Speer manuals had two 38 Special HBWC sections. One for revolvers and a second for the S&W M52.

The Speer guys posted rather "honest" velocities as they tested in real guns, not pressure barrels.

Cheers,

Dave
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Post by Eindecker 7/30/2023, 12:36 pm

other then lyman, im not really finding any damned interest in the loading data to seperate hollow based wadcutters from double ended wadcutters. 

We can agree that the alliant 96 manual puts out 2.8 grains of bullseye in a 357 case for a target wadcutter load, that we can assume is a hollow base wadcutter. but the non target wadcutter load of 5.7 grains bullseye is most likely for a double ended wadcutter considering the estimated chamber pressure is 34,000 pressure units... instead of the estimated 14,000 with the 2.8 grains. 

We can assume the swagged hollow base wadcutter is NOT a good idea with the 5.7 grain load, but can we assume the 2.8 grain charge is safe with a double ended wadcutter

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