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Looking for Info on how to Improve S&W double action trigger "Staging"

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Looking for Info on how to Improve S&W double action trigger "Staging" Empty Looking for Info on how to Improve S&W double action trigger "Staging"

Post by Kallysan Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:32 pm

Looking for info on how to improve the "Staged" double action trigger on my S&W M19.  I've shot a lot of different Smiths, some are easier to "Stage" the trigger than others, they seem to almost have a detent during the trigger pull. Does anyone know what adjustments to make to increase the ability to "Stage"?  Thinking it has to do with the Double Action Sear Engagement.  All the info online is about smoothing the trigger pull.  I would appreciate any info.

Thanks

Kallysan

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Post by Tripscape Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:50 pm

Yes, but it's not easy. Even if you a seasoned smith the small variation in pin and parts can create a havoc. So where you start is:

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Your sear on trigger lifts spring loaded sear on the hammer. Those surfaces need to engage in such a way that when they are in top most position they are parallel with each other and are just sliding along, creating that shelf that we call a creep in 1911's. However, a second lift accomplished by the below two surfaces need to seemlessly take over to lift all the way and disengage / drop the hammer.
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In short you need to take all of these things into consideration and really take your time.  Great smooth SW DA trigger job is easy to achieve. What you are asking, the distinct staging, is very hard.

Tripscape

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Post by Kallysan Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:55 pm

Thanks for the info.  It's what I was looking for.  I am a machinist fabricator by trade, I'm use to going slow 😊

Kallysan

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Post by Kallysan Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:58 pm

Do you know if anyone ever created a jig for this mod?
Thanks again

Kallysan

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Post by Tripscape Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:21 pm

I do not know, sorry.

Tripscape

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Post by Dan Webb Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:26 pm

I had a Keefer Custom S&W 10-6 PPC gun that had what looked to be an over-travel screw in the trigger. It was made of rubber. You could pull the trigger very fast until the rubber contacted, get your final sight picture and squeeze to compress the rubber and drop the hammer.

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Post by Kallysan Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:33 pm

That's an interesting idea.  Definitely something to think about. Thanks

Kallysan

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Post by Tripscape Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:27 pm

Different concept, but similar to how Geppert X 1911 and Pardini second stages are made up. I can imagine an overtravel screw, which is really a housing with slot face on the front, hollow, spring inside and a ball on the back. Basically what Pardini does but trigger mounted.
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Tripscape

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Post by Kallysan Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:30 pm

👍

Kallysan

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Post by Allgoodhits Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:42 pm

Having been shooting S&W revolvers double action competitively for over 40 yrs, here is what was done in the past, and what is done now most often.

First, make sure the action is smooth all the way through the pull. Otherwise the staged stop will not feel as good. It really doesn't matter how light or heavy the trigger pull is as long as it is smooth. A lighter pull will however permit you to have a lighter by feel second stage. Too heavy a pull will have you pull through ot over ride the stage.

Second. Some shooters with long fingers are able to use the finger tip of the trigger finger to index or stage against the trigger guard. If this works for you, then no external modifications need to be made, which could be a plus in DR or other categories which disallow any external modifications, such as an add-on trigger stop, or over-travel screw or stud.

BITD, we would use a foam ear plug and tape it to the inside of the back of the trigger guard. Material and thickness to taste to get the "feel" that you like and can control repeatably. Another way was to take an eraser from a typical pencil. Glue it to the inside back of the trigger guard. Use a finger file to "sand" it down to the stop that you like.

The good thing about the above is that they are easy to do, and can be removed easily when needed or if needed. The bad things is that temperature may play a role of the "stop" as the material either gets stiff or compresses. Pencil erasers tend to get hard.

Later various methods of drilling and tapping either the trigger or the trigger guard were done. A small screw with a rubber tip or nipple was screwed in. These typically were adjustable for tension/stop or no stop if wanted, just overtravel.  

Some of the guns when using the stop/stage would permit one to pull the trigger thus cocking the gun, and you could actually take your finger off the trigger and it would stay in that cocked position, even though it was not cocked on the single action sear. This condition was not used as such, because it proved unproductive for the better shooters. Most would without haste, but not quickly, pull the trigger to the set or stop position, then without letting off, simply dress up the sight picture and alignment and continue the press on through.

It takes some getting used to on getting the stop set so that it is repeatable and successful for you and the type of shooting that you will be doing. If too light one tends to simply pull through it and it basically becomes a too tight over travel stop. If too much/heavy of a stop, then it tends to make you yank on it as the feel is that something may be wrong.  When they are set up right for some people they are outstanding. Others find them worthless, except as an over travel stop.

Last, if you have excess play in the hammer or trigger, then shims may be needed, otherwise it will be difficult to get the staging stop, to feel consistent. Also, if when using a stop make sure you try the trigger weak handed if you ever have to shoot weak handed, because if there is play in the trigger/hammer then the feel of the stop may be quite different.

Hold em!
Allgoodhits
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Post by Tripscape Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:43 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:Some of the guns when using the stop/stage would permit one to pull the trigger thus cocking the gun, and you could actually take your finger off the trigger and it would stay in that cocked position, 

I am still learning revolvers. If you have a version of said setup can you please pic the internal engagements and spring weights?

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Post by Allgoodhits Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:28 pm

Tripscape wrote:
Allgoodhits wrote:Some of the guns when using the stop/stage would permit one to pull the trigger thus cocking the gun, and you could actually take your finger off the trigger and it would stay in that cocked position, 

I am still learning revolvers. If you have a version of said setup can you please pic the internal engagements and spring weights?

In the resilient bumper stop methods, no internal work was done other than simply making the action as smooth as one would want it for double action. The resilient rubber simply enables the sears to sort of balance with the stop, preventing it from rolling off.

Simply put enough material between the rear of the trigger and the back of the inside of the trigger guard so that you cannot pull the trigger all the way through to hammer fall. Then reduce the material until you can. Trial and error will enable you to achieve the feel that you think you want. What you initially come up with will change as you gain more control of that type of trigger press. Think of it has stored energy that needs just a little push to get it to roll over the top and down the hill.

The beauty of this method, is that no internal mods are done, and you can simply go back to SA/DA at any time.
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