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Full Wadcutters in 9mm (revolver)

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Post by Upper40 10/24/2023, 8:51 am

I know the 148 HBWC works great in 6" 38/357 revolvers with factory twist at 50 yards.  I have a S&W 986 (9mm revolver) with a 6" Lothar Walther 9.8" twist barrel and trying to work the best 50 yard round with a 120K power factory.

The revolver prefers 147 XTP JHP .355 bullets over the 115 and 124 versions.  It even likes the Federal Sytech 150 grain flat nose at 50 yards.

The titanium cylinder bore on 986 revolvers is actually .358 and the Walther barrel .355.

Has anyone experimented with a full wadcutter in a 9mm case...thinking solid base in the 100-130 grain range if there is such a bullet sized to .356.  Intent is to use the 9.8" twist to take advantage of the full body length of the WC, and since it's a revolver I'm not concerned with feeding issues.  A solid cast bullet would eliminate skirt separation that occurs with hollow base lead bullets.

Any thoughts?

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Post by bruce martindale 10/24/2023, 9:06 am

Yes, my stock Sa RO in 9 had such a long throat that I could do that. I found Federal cases were the only ones with a long straight wall section. Use a big enough expander plug so that you can hand seat for much of the length. Don’t crush the base in. I forgot the load l used. Watch for squibs. Good luck, 357 hbwc should be good in your gun

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Post by Upper40 10/24/2023, 10:18 am

bruce martindale wrote:Yes, my stock Sa RO in 9 had such a long throat that I could do that. I found Federal cases were the only ones with a long straight wall section. Use a big enough expander plug so that you can hand seat for much of the length. Don’t crush the base in. I forgot the load l used. Watch for squibs. Good luck, 357 hbwc should be good in your gun
Thanks for the info...I sure would like to locate a source for 100-130 grain range wadcutter bullets.  The standard swaged 148 HBWC doesn't look like a good fit :-) ?
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Post by DA/SA 10/24/2023, 10:27 am

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Post by LenV 10/24/2023, 1:16 pm

Use the 148 hbwc. Just seat on middle cannelure. It's still a full wadcutter even if protrudes from the case. You won't have any lead protrude past cylinder and you might avoid an extreme over pressure charge. 9mm are NOT forgiving about over seating.
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Post by Allgoodhits 10/24/2023, 2:21 pm

FWIW, Bayou Bullets and Brazos Precision make several 9mm bullets in the 140 -150 gr range. Bayou makes an excellent 138gr BNWC. Keep in mind the 9mm in a tapered case. In order to clear the neck the bullet needs to be swaged/squeezed down. I think you may be better off with just a heavier bullet, seated a tad longer. This will give more case volume to play with a larger assortment of powders.

Also FWIW, my S&W 929 shoots 115 gr JHPs pretty darn good and 124 and 125 gr HiTek coated bullets almost as well. All <3" at 50 yds. VV N320, WSF and WST. I like VV N320 around 3.7 - 4.1 gr the best for the task intended. Heavier charge for the lighter JHP s.
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Post by bruce martindale 10/25/2023, 7:15 am

The 148s do stick out of the case, a lot. 
Use a shank from a drill bit of similar size to determine potential case depth

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Post by Kp321 10/25/2023, 9:09 am

I have been experimenting with 75 gr wadcutters from Matt’s Bullets in 38 Super. Might be worth a try in 9mm. 
By the way, the light wadcutters are showing promise, just have not gotten the right powder charge to cycle dependably.

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Post by Upper40 10/25/2023, 9:50 am

Kp321 wrote:I have been experimenting with 75 gr wadcutters from Matt’s Bullets in 38 Super. Might be worth a try in 9mm. 
By the way, the light wadcutters are showing promise, just have not gotten the right powder charge to cycle dependably.


He has a nice selection in the 38/357 category!

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Post by Upper40 10/26/2023, 7:59 am

The best part about reloading to me is developing loads. Ordered a MP H&G #50 mold. I have a few of the excellent MP molds now.

The mold allows for solid wadcutters, and 2 variations of hollow base. My question is about sizing and lubing the wadcutter if I crimp the bullet at midpoint for the 9mm case.  I have Starline so I can adjust where the lube is pressed into the bullet during the sizing cycle.

Looking at the bullet, if I crimp at midpoint I will only have one lube groove. Would this be sufficient, or should I lube the crimp groove also, or move the crimp further out.  (I'm working with a taper crimp, would prefer a roll) 


https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-hg50-hbwc-38-357/
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Post by Kp321 10/26/2023, 8:41 am

If you can keep them clean, lube all of the grooves. This would work well with a heat to apply lube. With the short amount of bullet in the case, I would go with a roll crimp for revolver loads.

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Post by Upper40 10/26/2023, 8:51 am

Kp321 wrote:If you can keep them clean, lube all of the grooves. This would work well with a heat to apply lube. With the short amount of bullet in the case, I would go with a roll crimp for revolver loads.
Haven't located a 9mm roll crimp die...do they even make one?

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Post by Kp321 10/26/2023, 8:58 am

My old, 70’s vintage, RCBS dies roll crimped in the seater die.

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Post by JIMPGOV 10/26/2023, 9:12 am

3D AMMO INC USED TO MAKE 100GR SWAGED 38 BULLETS. I DON'T KNOW IF THEIR STILL IN BUSINESS.

112 W PLUM Doniphan, Nebraska, 68832
(402) 845-2285

BEAR CREEK SUPPLY MAKES 38 105GR HBRN SWAGED AND A SHORT 96GR RN SWAGED
https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/bulletselection

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Post by Wobbley 10/26/2023, 12:10 pm

As for lube, I have to ask why you would do that,  I’d coat them, either HiTek or Powder (paint) from Eastwood.  There are plenty of videos on you tube on how to do both coating systems.  You’ll still need to size them after coating.  Is it better?  Well Brazos Bullets used to offer both lubed and coated and the lubed was dropped as an offering.   So, yeah, it’s better.  Your star lube sizer will handle the sizing.
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Post by Steve B 10/27/2023, 10:22 am

Upper40 wrote:I know the 148 HBWC works great in 6" 38/357 revolvers with factory twist at 50 yards.  I have a S&W 986 (9mm revolver) with a 6" Lothar Walther 9.8" twist barrel and trying to work the best 50 yard round with a 120K power factory.

The revolver prefers 147 XTP JHP .355 bullets over the 115 and 124 versions.  It even likes the Federal Sytech 150 grain flat nose at 50 yards.

The titanium cylinder bore on 986 revolvers is actually .358 and the Walther barrel .355.

Has anyone experimented with a full wadcutter in a 9mm case...thinking solid base in the 100-130 grain range if there is such a bullet sized to .356.  Intent is to use the 9.8" twist to take advantage of the full body length of the WC, and since it's a revolver I'm not concerned with feeding issues.  A solid cast bullet would eliminate skirt separation that occurs with hollow base lead bullets.

Any thoughts?

Definitely need to post a pic of that gun!

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Post by Upper40 10/27/2023, 2:23 pm

Red dot is not final
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Post by Allgoodhits 10/27/2023, 8:31 pm

Upper40 wrote:Red dot is not final

FWIW,
Based on the gun with an underlug and the Stick Shift Mover scope base you must be setting this up for NRA Action Pistol.

Some things to consider, which if you have already disregard as you have arrived at your conclusions, if you haven't then this may be worthing considering. Set aside whether or not WC are suitable for 9mm cases, That, is a separate matter.

Given if NRA AP you need to meet the absolute minimum 120K PF (Bullet weight X velocity) Most load to about 125 -127K PF.
Given at Bianchi and most Regionals have very snappy turning targets, very much unlike bullseye range turning targets.
Given that in NRA AP a bullet hole greater than 1.5 times the bullet's diameter is scored as a miss.
Given at Bianchi and a few Regionals they have "locking" Falling Plates
Given that with that much sight over bore & slow moving bullets likely will require numerous sight adjustments throughout the course.
Given that lead on the mover is required, and that you are using mechanical (Stick Shift) lead not holding lead.

I would consider:

Meeting 120K PF with a 110 - 125 gr bullet has the bullet reaching the target more quickly, which could be important on a shot fired close to the par time end, and the bullet gets there before the target edges. If match is run on timer only, this is less important.

I lighter bullet of the same caliber will not be as long, thus penetrates (gets through) the target more quickly. With added velocity and a shorter projectile provides a bit of additional insurance on that late to fire shot reaching the target and penetrating it, thus reducing the likelihood of the hole being greater than 1.5 times the bullets diameter, which would be a miss. The worst combination for contributing to the elongated hole on the late to fire shot, especially at 35 and 50 yds, is the slow moving long bullet.

With ranges with locking plates, you want that bullet there as quickly as possible before the plates lock. When the bullet gets there matters, not just when the shot is fired.

With that much sight over bore, if sighted in at 50 yds with a 140-150 gr bullet running 860 - 800 fps you will be a 1.25 - 2" high at 25 yds and 1.25 - 2" low at 10 yds. To correct this requires over/under or sight adjustments. AP events go pretty quickly, forgetting to adjust or forgetting to return sights will happen. Not if, when.

The WC bullet in a moon clip is not going to be load into the cylinder friendly.

A lighter bullet moving faster to meet PF, requires less lead on the mover. Yes, you have a mover base, but a less lead is better. Your lead is calculated based on the perpendicular distance to the target. You can only shoot one shot per pass when the gun is perpendicular to the target. All other shots in the string are either while the target is approaching center or past center, thus the lead calculation is compromised. For this reason, less needed lead is better. For lead an 820 fps bullet at 10 yds requires, I think about 4.4" . Given that the target run is 60 ft, then a far flank shot before the target disappears is not at 10 yds any more it is about 42 ft away at an angle. The angle means that you no longer have full face view of the target. The scoring rings now are 0 instead of O. At the wall edge for the 10 yd line (30 ft) the target is now 42 ft away. The mechanical lead your Stick Shift is set for 4.4 inches of lead at 10 yds. At 42 ft the lead on the target will now be a bit over 6". So, your perfectly aimed shot in an 8" ten ring will now be about 2" in front of the leading edge of that ten ring, when perfectly aimed at shot with correct lead in the center of the run would be a solid X in the middle of the ten ring. Since the ten ring is 8" and the eight ring is 12" then having slightly greater than 6" of lead may just give you a 5, even though it was a perfectly aimed shot based on the mechanical lead at 10 yds, but the target is not 30 ft away it is 42 ft away! The stick shift will give you lead based on 42 ft not 30 ft. This angle effect when using mechanical lead is why especially at 10 and 15 yds on the mover, the best shooters shoot those shots in the sweat spot, which is as close to the center of the run as possible. Many question, why are they shooting so fast when they had all that time left on the run? Now you know. At 20 & 25 yds the angle is greatly reduced so a shot close to the wall is only slight further than the center shots on the run. I think at 25 yds (75ft) a wall edge shot is about 80 ft. So there ironically is more room for error at 25 yds than there is at 10 due to lead and the angle at the target run edge and the reduce face image of the target. At run center the scoring rings are round O like a pumpkin at the edges the rings look more like 0 rugby ball.

NRA AP is fun. The hardest part about it is, for a really good shooter, technically, it shouldn't be so difficult based on the size of the target and scoring rings. To this, I say step up give it a try. As long as you can acquire the perfect grip with your hands starting above your shoulders and the gun is in the holster and get that first shot off in 2 - 5.5 seconds being a ten, and follow up with all other shots as ten, then it's a piece of cake. Oh, and your gun and ammo has to be 100 reliable, since there are no alibis.

Enjoy the pursuit, it is a hoot. BTW, I am Triple Distinguished in NRA AP. Open, Metallic and Production.
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Post by Upper40 10/27/2023, 9:26 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:
Upper40 wrote:Red dot is not final

FWIW,
Based on the gun with an underlug and the Stick Shift Mover scope base you must be setting this up for NRA Action Pistol.

NRA AP is fun. The hardest part about it is, for a really good shooter, technically, it shouldn't be so difficult based on the size of the target and scoring rings. To this, I say step up give it a try. As long as you can acquire the perfect grip with your hands starting above your shoulders and the gun is in the holster and get that first shot off in 2 - 5.5 seconds being a ten, and follow up with all other shots as ten, then it's a piece of cake. Oh, and your gun and ammo has to be 100 reliable, since there are no alibis.

Enjoy the pursuit, it is a hoot. BTW, I am Triple Distinguished in NRA AP. Open, Metallic and Production.


::::::::::::::::

Thanks for the response. That mover base is my design, along with the finger locks, grip bottom etc.  I am familiar with action pistol, shot Bianchi years ago.

Trying to make a fun come back after a 30 year layoff and have a "real accurate" 38 spl revolver load, but really would like to get the 9mm tuned in.  I was spoiled with my Manurhrin 9mm revolver back then. Like with my street rods and revolvers I like building them more than driving them.


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Post by Allgoodhits 10/27/2023, 9:54 pm

Upper40 wrote:
Allgoodhits wrote:
Upper40 wrote:Red dot is not final

FWIW,
Based on the gun with an underlug and the Stick Shift Mover scope base you must be setting this up for NRA Action Pistol.

NRA AP is fun. The hardest part about it is, for a really good shooter, technically, it shouldn't be so difficult based on the size of the target and scoring rings. To this, I say step up give it a try. As long as you can acquire the perfect grip with your hands starting above your shoulders and the gun is in the holster and get that first shot off in 2 - 5.5 seconds being a ten, and follow up with all other shots as ten, then it's a piece of cake. Oh, and your gun and ammo has to be 100 reliable, since there are no alibis.

Enjoy the pursuit, it is a hoot. BTW, I am Triple Distinguished in NRA AP. Open, Metallic and Production.


::::::::::::::::

Thanks for the response. That mover base is my design, along with the finger locks, grip bottom etc.  I am familiar with action pistol, shot Bianchi years ago, shot a couple of open national records at Bianchi,  NY State AP Champ a couple years, Regional AP Match winner etc.

Trying to make a fun come back after a 30 year layoff and have a "real accurate" 38 spl revolver load, but really would like to get the 9mm tuned in.  I was spoiled with my Manurhrin 9mm revolver back then. Like with my street rods and revolvers I like building them more than driving them.

I shot at Trenton Fish & Game in Holland Patent for years when they had those matches. I think the MDs then were Bill Judycki, later Tom Kwasniewski. Liked shooting that match. They had one of the only four motor movers. My wife is from Rome, so it was easy to make the trip to shoot Holland Patent.

I think a 9mm revolver is the ticket for a revolver Bianchi gun. I have a 929 now, but my first 3 Bianchi open guns were all .38 spl revolvers. I shot WCs loaded to 850 fps for years. Then discovered the Brazos and Bayou Hitek coated bullets and went to their 138 WC, then 135 RN then finally the 125s. I like the 125 HiTek bullets the best. Oh, my guns are K frames so JHPs are not a good option with loads in the 1020 fps range. (I know a bunch of people who cracked K frame barrels using JHPs) Still like the wheel guns. Even though my only 1920 was with an auto, I have shot more 1914 + scores with a revolver and a couple 1918s.
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Post by Eindecker 12/17/2023, 12:16 am

just a giggle for thought here fellows.. 


For years I wanted to create a custom revolver for 38 smith and wesson. 

__ yeah i know, 38 special so much more convenient, but part of it was because a certain relative had very fond memories of being a young detective on the beat being issued a top break 38 sw revolver after ww2.____

The Federal 9mm RIMMED cartridge was partially pulled from commercial usage due to low sales in the handgun, and issues with some people claiming it was safe to use in a 38 special or 38 sw revolver. 

Over the years the revolvers come up on gun auction sites and are sold off to a new generation of sucker...    However looking up information on the cartridge, most people are  using 38 smith and wesson cases to load it up. 

SO have you tried running a 38 smith and wesson case through the gun?  It would be worth a shot. 

Have you considered trying to fit a 9x18 makarov case?

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Post by Upper40 12/17/2023, 6:30 am

Thanks..I loaded some Bayou 138 gr BNWC (.356) in the 9mm cases..."very accurate" in my revolver. With Lee 9mm roll crimp die (91181) . The Hi-Tech coating takes care of the lube issue.
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