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Aguila 22 - not the same!

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Aguila 22 - not the same! - Page 3 Empty Aguila 22 - not the same!

Post by RoyDean Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:36 am

First topic message reminder :

I am now forced to "eat humble pie"!

I have been a very vocal advocate of Aguila Super Extra Standard Velocity 22LR ammunition. I've shot tens of thousands and have had very few duds and almost no malfunctions in a variety of pistols, but particularly Pardini's. Inexpensive, accurate, reliable - what's not to like?

The box with the yellow flash on the left is the ammo that I have extolled. The new stock with the red/blue on the right I bought recently from a dealer in Tempe, AZ for about $3.00/box (for a case of 2,000). 

The new version is not the same. Feels much softer than before. Not enough "ooomph!". For me it is useless, numerous malfunctions in both a Pardini and a Rugger 22/45. Definitely not recommended!

Now gagging on the humble pie!

Aguila 22 - not the same! - Page 3 Agsex10

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Post by gwhite Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:31 pm

I didn't have time to check very many cases, but it appears that most of the 20,000 rounds of Aguila we just bought is from a slightly different Lot # from the one I test fired succesfully.  They both start with "21HV", but the number after that is different.  I think that means the date of manufacture is possibly the same, just slightly different batches.

I haven't been able to find any current info on how their lot code system works.  I think the letters indicate the year, and the leading numbers may be the week of the year.  In that case, the lots we have may be from different days.

We have a match coming up next weekend against West Point, so I don't want to get too involved in ammo testing until we are past that.  I may be able to get a few students to try out a box or two in the next couple days.

gwhite

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Post by gwhite Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:43 pm

I dug around, and I found an old email from Aguila when I asked about the age of various lots of ammo we had on hand.  Here's what I found out:

16FE26- November 2016
29HE20- September 2017
09KQ12- October 2017
09DL22-  April 2019
05DL24-  April 2019
19YX14- January 2020

Apparently, the two letter code determines the month of manufacture.  At least the two "DL" Lots we had were both from April 2019.  The first two digits may indicate the day of the month.  Beyond that, who knows?  The suffix on the Lot I test fired last week is "56", and if I remember correctly, the Lot we have the most of ends in "119", so it's hard to say what that might indicate.

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Post by gwhite Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:36 pm

The two lots of the new red & white box Aguila we have are 21HV56 and 21HV119.  We have a couple of students beginning to shoot .22's.  I had them test out both lots after making sure their pistols work well with the older blue & yellow box stuff.  We've only gone through a couple hundred rounds of each lot, but so far it has all shot just fine.  

If someone is having trouble with the red & white box ammo, I suspect it is from a bad lot (or lots?), and isn't due to any intentional change in the manufacturing.  That's still disappointing (and if you are stuck with some, pretty annoying).  I've shot countless cases of the older stuff, and the team I help coach has gone through several cases a year for over a decade.  I've found if much more reliable than CCI, and without the (highly variable) waxy lube, the pistols stay cleaner with Aguila.

I would recommend contacting Aguila about it, and see what they say.  Now that they are making rim fire ammo both in Mexico and in Texas, it may be that they had some issues with the new factory.  Hopefully, those are behind us now.

gwhite

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Post by Kp321 Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:55 pm

Aguila made in Texas?  Tell me more, I missed that memo.

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Post by gwhite Sun Dec 17, 2023 5:09 pm

I saw an article in one of the NRA publications maybe about a year ago that they were setting up a facility in Texas that would include rimfire production.  I couldn't quickly find a detailed article, but from Aguila's web site, it says:

"Aguila:registered:, founded in 1961, is manufactured in Cuernavaca, Morelos, Mexico by Industrias Tecnos, S.A. de C.V. Now with facilities in both Mexico and Texas, Aguila is one of the largest manufacturers of rimfire, centerfire and shotshell in the world."

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Post by shanneba Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:28 am

The Texas Aguila facility is located in Conroe Texas (just north of Houston)
I'm not sure what ammo they load there.

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Post by 14S&W Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:42 pm

I found some Aguila Standard Velocity, rated 1130 fps that had 2 red stripes at the bottom of a white box.  First I’ve seen of it.  I ordered some and will see what the results are.  If I find a photo I can post here I will do so.  Edited for spelling.


Here is a link.

https://www.aguilaammo.com/products/22-super-extra-long-rifle-standard-velocity-lead-solid-point

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Post by gwhite Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:30 am

14S&W wrote:I found some Aguila Standard Velocity, rated 1130 fps that had 2 red stripes at the bottom of a white box.  First I’ve seen of it.  I ordered some and will see what the results are.  If I find a photo I can post here I will do so.  Edited for spelling.


Here is a link.

https://www.aguilaammo.com/products/22-super-extra-long-rifle-standard-velocity-lead-solid-point

I think that's the stuff we bought ~ 20K rounds of recently for the team I help coach, in two slightly different lots.  So now there are three possible box designs; the old white/blue/yellow, the white/blue/red, and the white/red/red.  The white/red/red we have seems to perform just as well as the original white/blue/yellow version.

I would think the stuff made in Texas would say "Made in USA", but I haven't seen any marked that way.

gwhite

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Post by 14S&W Wed Dec 20, 2023 6:50 am

Ableammo had it for $20.99/brick so I ordered some to try out.  Shipped price worked out to about $24/brick as their shipping is a little expensive and they add insurance.  Nowadays I just look at what it costs shipped to determine if I buy or not. 
I’m hoping it’s improved over what I have read about here as I’m about out of the blue/yellow/white bricks I got several years ago.  At worst there are always new kids learning to shoot that don’t need match grade ammo and I will donate a brick to them.

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Post by 14S&W Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:56 pm

12.27.2023
I shot some today in light rain and mud.  At least it wasn’t freezing! Best group was about .530” for 9 shots with a called flyer opening up to 1.08”.  The last group was about 2”.  Distance was 20 yards and my rest was me standing and propped against a tree.  Pistol was a VQ Black Mamba with the scope set on 2X.  I will try again when it’s drier and I can use a good rest.  I really miss youth and good eyesight.


I tried to post a photo but it said it exceeded the size limit.

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Post by Termite Thu Dec 28, 2023 2:48 pm

I got some at camp Perry this year and just cracked into the case. Having the same issues as everyone else. Friend had a chrono so last night I shot both. 
Here are the pics of the chrono 
First is the new aguila and second is the old batch. You can see the difference. I have a case into them now. Will see what they say
Aguila 22 - not the same! - Page 3 Img_4410
Aguila 22 - not the same! - Page 3 Img_4411

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Post by james r chapman Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:30 pm

Being honest, 10 shot comparisons are not statistically relevant.
Unfortunately probably a 50 shot would better represent the comparison.
But, I like the effort.

Jim
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Post by 14S&W Thu Dec 28, 2023 3:44 pm

I shot 3 more boxes today and determined this is some dirty ammo, as at the end I had to knock empty cases out of the chamber and was having some feeding problems. The action was gritty feeling and sounded that way. Accuracy was still reasonable but I’ll have to keep a brush and brake cleaner handy.

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Post by Termite Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:02 pm

james r chapman wrote:Being honest, 10 shot comparisons are not statistically relevant.
Unfortunately probably a 50 shot would better represent the comparison.
But, I like the effort.

Jim
Normally I would agree with you but this is not an isolated incident. Everyone at my club that shoots bullseye started having the problem when we started shooting the new colored box ammo. Our jr program probably uses 10-15 thousand rounds a year and never had issues till the change. We do have some good shooters that shoot at our club including 2 of the best jrs in the country and they had issues. 

We have shot various ammo with a slightly higher velocity (checked with chrono) and have had zero problems. That tells me that the load has changed

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Post by gwhite Thu Dec 28, 2023 5:29 pm

Aguila Standard Velocity (the old stuff as well) DOES have softer recoil than (for example) CCI.  That's one of the reasons I like it.  Many semi-autos don't shoot it reliably with a stock recoil spring.  I am responsible for maintaining 8 Pardini SP's, and they all shoot Aguila just fine if you cut down the recoil spring a bit.

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Post by tomd999 Fri Dec 29, 2023 5:38 pm

Hiya,

Here's SE "blue" box velocities as well as Bullseye-X and CCI SV "New light blue" box from a few months ago in a rebuilt Pardini SP with a brand new barrel and a 5-1/2" Model 41 from 1970 (The one with the sliding front sight) Chronograph is a PACT II with screens 15 feet from the muzzle.

Edit: These were 30 round strings for each type, per pistol, IE I fired 900's with each pistol to get practice in as well rather than just velocity testing.

Pardini SP New, standard length barrel
Aguila SE,  Ave: 958 fps, ES: 48.1 fps, SD: 13.9/1.45%
Eley Bullseye X Pistol, Ave: 945 fps, ES: 49.2 fps, SD: 16.5/1.74%
CCI Std, Ave: 932.9 fps ES: 28.1 fps, SD: 9.2/.98%

S&W 41, 5-1/2"
Aguila SE, Ave: 986.2 fps, ES: 36.7 fps, SD: 10.3/1.04%
Eley Bullseye X Pistol, Ave: 983.4, ES: 42.8 fps, SD: 13.2/1.34%
CCI Std, Ave: 948.2 fps, ES: 55.4 fps, SD: 17.1/1.80%


Last edited by tomd999 on Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by gwhite Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:24 pm

While interesting, velocity data doesn't really provide much insight into how ammo will behave in a semi-auto.  You can achieve the same muzzle velocity lots of different ways.  The two extreme cases are to set off a brief explosion, and let the bullet coast out the barrel, versus shoving it continuously so it accelerates smoothly the whole way.   How a given design of pistol reacts depends on the mass of the slide, the strength of the recoil and hammer springs, lubrication etc.  One flavor of ammo with identical velocity measurements may be completely useless from a cycling standpoint, while another ammo is ultra reliable.  The felt recoil will also differ.

When you throw in how clean it burns and how fast the bullet lube gums up your pistol, there are LOT of variables to deal with.  Not to mention how often the factory doesn't get the priming compound all the way around the rim...

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Post by Termite Sat Dec 30, 2023 2:50 pm

Everybody is reading too deep into this. We all had various high end guns where the old ammo functioned just fine and now it doesn’t. Just trying to pinpoint what has changed and the velocity seems to be lower than it use to be

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Post by gwhite Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:24 pm

The average velocity change you measured is only 11 fps out of ~ 940 fps.  That is about a 1.2% change.  If your pistol is that fussy, it's a pistol problem, not the ammo.  That's also a small enough change that it could just be a different lot of powder.  

When the students I coach get back from holiday break, I will get a lot more data on the two lots of the red box stuff we have.  So far, it's worked fine in the few different pistols we've tried it in.

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Post by Wobbley Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:45 pm

I would suggest that for the velocity (and blowback impulse) reduction shown, that something else is the problem causing the malfunctions.  Whether it is dimensional or lubrication difference would require further investigation.  We may think everything is the same, but often there are differences we may overlook.

As a reference, I have successfully fired Norma TAC22 subsonic which has a published velocity of 1017 fps rather than the normal 1070 of “standard velocity” 22s.  This is four times the impulse reduction. It does shoot significantly lower than usual SV, but it does function.
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Post by Allgoodhits Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:47 pm

james r chapman wrote:I believe Pistol Match is only 950 +- fps.
Compared to 1080 SV

I think Pistol Match is chronographed from a pistol. Most all .22LR ammo is chronographed from a rifle barrel. I am pretty sure that 1080 SV will chrono in the mid 900's from a pistol.
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Post by JMAC1141 Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:11 am

I received a shipment of new Aguila SV and based on concern from postings, I tested right away.  One half box each in my HS Victor and Citation - no function problems and could not feel a difference between new and old Aguila.  I tried some TAC 22 for the first time in them and experienced one double - too light.

Further tested from the bench in a TC 14" match barrel at 50, 60, 77 & 100m.  In my old age limited ability, I could not distinguish a difference between the old and new

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Post by Allen Barnett Sun Dec 31, 2023 12:26 pm

I have 5 assorted models of the Hammerli Essex and 1 lone High Standard Supermatic Citation and use nothing but SK Pistol Match.  Yes it is more expensive than Aguilla and CCI and Norma TAC but it ALWAYS goes bang and I never have any failure to feed problems, even in my High Standard!!!  I have tried Eley Bullseye X and was not impressed with it in MY pistols, misfires and FTF's.

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Post by 641 Thu Jan 04, 2024 10:05 am

I gave up on Aguila and CCI in my Pardini.  Shooting Lapua Pistol King only, now.  It costs a little more, but is very accurate and very reliable. (I did not see it mentioned in this thread.)

https://www.champchoice.com/mc-ammo-pellets/rimfire-ammunition/lapua-22cal-pistol-king-ammo-50-rds-420164

https://www.lapua.com/cartridges/pistol-king-22-lr/
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Aguila 22 - not the same! - Page 3 Empty Warm ammo may work better

Post by Gravy Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:52 pm

As discussed here and in other forums, members of our club and myself are experiencing frequent failures to load with the new Aguila standard and super extra standard 22lr. 
 
Our range is indoors;  but, can be cold until the heater catches up.  Several of us were experiencing failure to load from our pistols (e.g., Pardini, Ruger MkII) when shooting the cold ammo.  I have had similar issues with CCI standard and resolved them by keeping the ammo warm and in some cases, removing the wax from the end of the bullet (not an issue with Aguila) – Pardini mags are designed for European ammo, which is shorter than most US 22lr ammo.  So, I used the hand warmer that I use for fall and spring outdoor shoots to warm up my ammo.  Low and behold, the malfunctions went away.  They also reappear if I try to shoot the ammo cold.  I don't have precise temperature results from testing;  but, the new Aguila will fail to function when it is ~45 deg F or cooler.    
 
When warm, the new Aguila standard and super extra standard are less than 3% higher average velocity than CCI SV (Lab Radar shows 980 vs 955) from my 5” Pardini.  
 
My testing was limited to 10 rounds each.  So, my tests are not statically significant; but, all of the above ammo after hundreds of rounds when warm goes bang and is on call for me in our indoor 50' range.  And, from my experience the Aguila 22lr demonstrates a lower non-temperature related failure to function than the CCI std 22 lr, which averages to less than 1/1000.  Granted, I have only shot 6 cases or so of CCI and <2 cases of Aguila super extra standard through my Pardini. 
 
In a Ransom Rest, the old Aguila would hold x-ring at 50 yards from my Pardini 6" and almost hold 10-ring from my 5".  The CCI will hold 10 ring with 9 in the X at 50 yards from my 5” barrel.  Aguila is somewhat cleaner (no waxy buildup) shooting in my guns than the CCI standard.  Albeit, I do not like the smell.  
 
From the attached pictures, all 3 Aguila appear to be manufactured from the same location and have the same rated velocity.  Does anyone know if there is any difference in them?  Or, is Aguila just making marketing changes?  

 I have asked Aguila customer service and sales if there are difference in the 3 boxes of ammo;  but, their give a hoot level seems to be waning. 
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