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Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo

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chiz1180
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Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo Empty Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo

Post by jareds06 Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:14 pm

Well, it looks like I've gotten to the point of outshooting my ammo, this happened a lot sooner than I thought. 

Today I would say this is definitive proof. I've also done a few 10 shot groups off a bag and come up with varying results between 3.5" and 6". 

Below is my target at 50 yards today and what I chrono'd each shot at. 
Of that group, the avg was 1105 fps, SD of 21, and ES of 72. The Green denotes shots within 1 SD, Yellow within 2 SD, and the red, outside of 2 SD.

I will say that when I shot today, I felt locked in and completely rock solid. I called 9 of my shots as 10s, and one as probably not a 10. Now I refrained from scoping because what I found was when I would do this, these variances in ammo would cause me to chase my zero/hold. So I aimed at the center of the target and shot 10 times. And I think these velocity findings match up almost perfectly with my target at 50 yards. I can see the one shot that is 2 SD  low, all the way into the 8 ring, I can see two shots 1 SD faster just a little high pushing them up above the 10 ring into the 9 ring and let's say we chock 1 up to "getting lucky." The rest of the shots that were within an SD of the mean were pretty much all on call, in the 10 ring. With this in mind, if I'm going to start reloading and my goal is to cut the SD of 21 at least in half to about 10 or 11, and the ES, which for these 10 shots was only 72 but I'm finding it to be more like 100+ with a larger sample, down to say 40-45. I'd say that it's a reasonable standard to attain. This is what a friend of mine has measured CCI standard at and in my opinion, CCI standard is match grade ammo (see my 22 target for the day below)

Overall a good day, and I beat two personal bests. 293 for ,22 EIC, and 286 for Service Pistol.



 Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo E1jo789Foayxg2TFHT5XNSOf3VuJG18WRPibjVC+sEHOYVobuy1AFRaNUN4eWiJJUmiJRHFIlkKkbHomdV2+JpIc6lnKAPwftlCbe5PJxX0AAAAASUVORK5CYII=

Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo 20240420_120935

Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo 20240420_123947

Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo 20240420_125536

Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo 20240420_122149

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Post by JHHolliday Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:51 pm

Have you plugged these velocities into a ballistics calculator to check POI vs. velocity?  I would be surprised if the velocity variance explains the vertical stringing.

I checked this some years ago when I was shooting benchrest.  The calculator indicated that the different measured velocities of the projectiles (in this case air rifle pellets) only amounted to a couple of mm vertically.  I concluded that ES / SD wasn't important for benchrest, which is a different game from pistol for sure.
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Post by jareds06 Sat Apr 20, 2024 7:02 pm

JHHolliday wrote:Have you plugged these velocities into a ballistics calculator to check POI vs. velocity?  I would be surprised if the velocity variance explains the vertical stringing.

I checked this some years ago when I was shooting benchrest.  The calculator indicated that the different measured velocities of the projectiles (in this case air rifle pellets) only amounted to a couple of mm vertically.  I concluded that ES / SD wasn't important for benchrest, which is a different game from pistol for sure.
No I haven't, what would be the best way to do that with the given velocity info?

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Post by Al Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:48 pm

JHHolliday wrote:Have you plugged these velocities into a ballistics calculator to check POI vs. velocity?  I would be surprised if the velocity variance explains the vertical stringing.

I checked this some years ago when I was shooting benchrest.  The calculator indicated that the different measured velocities of the projectiles (in this case air rifle pellets) only amounted to a couple of mm vertically.  I concluded that ES / SD wasn't important for benchrest, which is a different game from pistol for sure.
20+ years ago I used to use my chronograph in tandem with my ransom rest to test 50 yd ammo. What I found is the ammo with the least ES/SD was NOT the most accurate. I quit when I found the best group also had one of the worst ES. 

It just doesn't make a difference with us shooting with one hand, standing, often in the wind. YMMV

Now, for my long range (700-1100 yds) Prairie Dog rifles its a different story.
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Post by chiz1180 Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:05 pm

That velocity spread won't make much of a difference on target, assuming a good gun more than likely it is the projectile that is not up to snuff.
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Post by Dcforman Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:30 pm

I use an app called BC for rifle. Using it for your situation, assuming a few factors, the difference in POI for 1100 fps vs 1060 fps is 0.2"... as Chris said, the issue is probably the projectile, not the velocity. 9mm can be a little tricky to load for. While I definitely encourage reloading for the sake of less expensive training ammo, I would also consider sourcing some quality factory match ammo, like Atlanta Arms.

Dave

EDIT: and BTW, good shooting! Keep it up!

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Post by JRV Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:04 pm

A 100 fps spread in 9mm (1050 fps to 1150 fps) accounts for less than a 1” difference in elevation on a 50 yard target with all common bullet weights, assuming the projectiles are reasonably consistent.  

By all means, get match ammo to eliminate variables, but it honestly does not look like you’re having ammo issues.  Mid to high 90s SF targets with metallic sights mean your rig is mechanically good enough.  It’s not like the “cone of error” for a projectile always runs away from the X.  Sometimes, you hold a 9 and shoot a 10 out of luck.  If you’re shooting on call and able to call scoring ring plus/minus a point, then the gear is good enough for SF and the score will come out in the wash.  

The points to pick up (or lose) are on the short line.  9s and 8s are not mechanical accuracy or ammo issues with halfway decent guns and ammo—they’re pure shooter errors.  Those are always in our control to fix.

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Post by jareds06 Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:33 pm

Of course the majority of it is shooter error but the error compounds and with my best setup I can consistently make a group at the long line with 22 about the size of the inside 9 ring. With my Hammerli from a sandbag I make a 1.2" group iron sights and less than a 1 inch group with a dot. With my P210 from a sandbag, over 30 shots it's greater than a 6" group, throwing shots into the 9 and 8 ring, which can then theoretically compound with my 9 ring hold putting me into the white making this NOT a halfway decent setup. If my handgun/ammo setup can't mechanically hold the 9 ring, I can't reliably hit ten 10s even if every shot I took was perfect. It would be essentially dependent on luck and that's unacceptable. Every point is the difference between winning and not winning a match so I won't accept my initial inclination which is to "be happy" with a 95 or 96 on the long line and put more focus into the short line. I can train both in tandem.
Also to put it in perspective, you would need at least a 97 on game day to break Henderson's NTI record on X's, I don't have confidence my rig can deliver that right now. I know it's possible with the right gun/ammo combination. I know my gun can shoot under 3" from a mechanical rest with whatever ammo they tested the gun with at the factory in 1974, I know I can shoot that score consistently at 50 yds with my hammerli, I just need to solve this issue with ammo for the long line.

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Post by jareds06 Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:41 pm

Dcforman wrote:I use an app called BC for rifle. Using it for your situation, assuming a few factors, the difference in POI for 1100 fps vs 1060 fps is 0.2"... as Chris said, the issue is probably the projectile, not the velocity. 9mm can be a little tricky to load for. While I definitely encourage reloading for the sake of less expensive training ammo, I would also consider sourcing some quality factory match ammo, like Atlanta Arms.

Dave

EDIT: and BTW, good shooting! Keep it up!
I believe that you two are correct and think it may mainly be the projectile. I'm going to pull apart a box of ammo and check them out for concentricity and weight.

I've always been told that the round passing through the transonic barrier would lead to degraded accuracy and that seems to be the case with many of these shots.

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Post by Dcforman Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:12 am

jareds06 wrote:
Dcforman wrote:I use an app called BC for rifle. Using it for your situation, assuming a few factors, the difference in POI for 1100 fps vs 1060 fps is 0.2"... as Chris said, the issue is probably the projectile, not the velocity. 9mm can be a little tricky to load for. While I definitely encourage reloading for the sake of less expensive training ammo, I would also consider sourcing some quality factory match ammo, like Atlanta Arms.

Dave

EDIT: and BTW, good shooting! Keep it up!
I believe that you two are correct and think it may mainly be the projectile. I'm going to pull apart a box of ammo and check them out for concentricity and weight.

I've always been told that the round passing through the transonic barrier would lead to degraded accuracy and that seems to be the case with many of these shots.

Don't bother pulling the ammo. It's not a good use of your time. Just use it for practice and move on. If you're concerned about the accuracy of your SP, buy this:

https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-124gr-jhp.html

Sandbag it. If it holds 10 ring, you're good. If it doesn't, have a master/HM sandbag it. If it still doesn't, the pistol needs work. If it does hold 10 ring for a Master/HM, consider the possibility that your shot process needs work. The grip required for a CF pistol (due mostly to a higher trigger weight) is much different than the grip required for a 22. It is possible the shots out of the 10 ring are due to a combination of anticipation/grip.

Dave

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Post by BE Mike Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:04 am

You're good to go. Give the chrono a rest. As Al said, it is all about training yourself to shoot as you would in matches. Start studying some training materials. I have never owned a chronograph and it didn't hinder my scores. I did own a Ransom Machine Rest.
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Post by jareds06 Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 pm

Dcforman wrote:
jareds06 wrote:
Dcforman wrote:I use an app called BC for rifle. Using it for your situation, assuming a few factors, the difference in POI for 1100 fps vs 1060 fps is 0.2"... as Chris said, the issue is probably the projectile, not the velocity. 9mm can be a little tricky to load for. While I definitely encourage reloading for the sake of less expensive training ammo, I would also consider sourcing some quality factory match ammo, like Atlanta Arms.

Dave

EDIT: and BTW, good shooting! Keep it up!
I believe that you two are correct and think it may mainly be the projectile. I'm going to pull apart a box of ammo and check them out for concentricity and weight.

I've always been told that the round passing through the transonic barrier would lead to degraded accuracy and that seems to be the case with many of these shots.

Don't bother pulling the ammo. It's not a good use of your time. Just use it for practice and move on. If you're concerned about the accuracy of your SP, buy this:

https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-124gr-jhp.html

Sandbag it. If it holds 10 ring, you're good. If it doesn't, have a master/HM sandbag it. If it still doesn't, the pistol needs work. If it does hold 10 ring for a Master/HM, consider the possibility that your shot process needs work. The grip required for a CF pistol (due mostly to a higher trigger weight) is much different than the grip required for a 22. It is possible the shots out of the 10 ring are due to a combination of anticipation/grip.

Dave
Just ordered 5 of their different ammo offerings since they were in stock. Hope the classic match 124gr/147gr shoots as well as their "elite" stuff.

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Post by jareds06 Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:57 pm

Well I tested 5 types of Atlanta Arms ammo, Norma 124 gr and the ammo I have been shooting, 124Gr SwissP, off a sandbag and the three best groups were Atlanta Arms Elite 124 gr, Norma 124 gr, and Swiss P 124 gr. I then went and shot a group off hand with 124gr SwissP that was about the same size as the best group off a sandbag, about 4.5". I've shot about 30 rounds of Norma off a sandbag now and it consistently makes a great 10 shot group. That may be the ammo I need to go with.

The Classic Match ammo both the 124gr and 147 gr were very disappointing. I expected at least a group as good as the SwissP stuff, but they were about the same as some cheap 9mm ammo I've sandbagged. Also it looks like from the brass that they use all sorts of different manufacturers, I don't know how that will effect consistency from lot to lot. The 147 gr elite ammo was also disappointing albeit slightly less. The 100gr Steel Challenge Elite ammo didn't produce any better accuracy than the classic match stuff, but the low recoil of the round is awesome and it's accurate enough to where I might use it as my new short line ammo. 

Welp, I guess now phase two will be testing my other P210-6 to see which is more accurate.

Below is the best sandbag group (AA Elite 124gr) vs my offhand group (124gr SwissP) today. I didnt scope the long line so I built up a nice group just in the wrong spot. Weird lighting condition today where it was both light showering with some sunlight poking through the clouds. It was lighting up the top edge of my front sight post, probably causing some of the upward tendency.

Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo 20240426_182917

Norma 124gr

Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo 20240426_182820

SwissP 124gr

Some interesting data from the long line/outshooting my ammo 20240426_182828

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Post by tovaert Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:36 am

I would argue that you printed a nice classic "waterline" group with the Elite 124 and one flyer which could have been excessive down pressure on the sandbag on that shot. L-R dispersion might be minimized by using some sort of front "rest" that momentarily prevents L-R slide movement when the hammer is falling. I use a cheap MTM plastic front rest and with practice you can minimize vertical stringing. I agree with you about changing light conditions.

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Post by jareds06 Sat Apr 27, 2024 12:56 pm

tovaert wrote:I would argue that you printed a nice classic "waterline" group with the Elite 124 and one flyer which could have been excessive down pressure on the sandbag on that shot. L-R dispersion might be minimized by using some sort of front "rest" that momentarily prevents L-R slide movement when the hammer is falling. I use a cheap MTM plastic front rest and with practice you can minimize vertical stringing. I agree with you about changing light conditions.
sand bags arent perfect. i would assume out of a machine rest the groups would be half the size which is able to hold the 10 ring and seems to be about where the innaccuracy is compounding with my own human flaws on the long line especially when compared to my Hammerli. Guess I'm back to where i started but now I know Norma 124gr is good stuff as well.

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