Miserable 50yd results

Most of my pistol shooting is done at indoor ranges. I have been improving in general, and have been challenging myself to continually improve. I started shooting at B-11 targets just to "make it harder."
I've been able to shoot outside a couple times so far this spring, at true 50yd/25yd targets.

My results have been less than encouraging.

Like, so bad I didn't take any pictures.

I was told that 50 foot shooting develops a person's ability to HOLD, and 50yd shooting emphasizes TRIGGER control.

Anyone concur with that idea?

Absolutely, I probably wrote that in my book.

Knowing your trigger, and refining your shot process will put more holes in the center of your 50 yd targets. Dry fire, done correctly, will improve that trigger quality.

Angular error is magnified at longer distances. Constancy on the longline is a combination of hold and trigger, you need both. A combination of dryfire and live fire is needed to develop both hold and trigger.

So, would that 50 ft. target shot at 50 yards come out as a clean target on the correct one? Looks like you are nailing it to me. As long as your short line scores don't suffer, it seems like you have a good individual training program going well.

Did you shoot the pictured B11 (intl' 50ft slow fire) at 50 yards?

SingleActionAndrew wrote:Did you shoot the pictured B11 (intl' 50ft slow fire) at 50 yards?

HA!, No, I wish....

BE Mike wrote:So, would that 50 ft. target shot at 50 yards come out as a clean target on the correct one? Looks like you are nailing it to me. As long as your short line scores don't suffer, it seems like you have a good individual training program going well.

No, that B11 was shot at 50 feet. It is a thread of sanity I am clinging to (proof to myself that I do have some skill).

BE Mike wrote:So, would that 50 ft. target shot at 50 yards come out as a clean target on the correct one? Looks like you are nailing it to me. As long as your short line scores don't suffer, it seems like you have a good individual training program going well.

No, that B11 was shot at 50 feet. It is a shred of sanity I am clinging to (proof to myself that I have some skill).

I shot today. I hung B2 and B3 targets at 25 yards, as I am out of B6 size. I do not have any proper 50yd/25yd targets, I just whipped up a dimensionally correct target in CAD and print them out on heavy paper.

Shooting at the B2/B3, and really concentrating on trigger control, I shot much better. I also cranked the UD over to 6moa.

I won't say that I am super pleased, but my groups were half the size.

Could it be that I am leading (timing) the shots? If so, it would explain why my groups were so big on the large targets (dot in black=roll through trigger).

This could be. It is hard to self diagnose these things.

Here's an old school practice you can use, but it is a life-long effort for most of us:
Stand close as needed to put 10 rounds in the 10-ring, consistently. Back up 10 feet, and repeat. Keep that distance until all 10 shots are 10's. Back up 10 feet, and repeat.
Learn how to shoot only ten's.

Possibly related: AMU training guide talks about using smaller blacks to improve.  I mostly have 50' at the range where I shoot, and occasionally 75'.  Typically I shoot targets designed for 50' - slow and timed.  But as an experiment I shot some of my 10m  air pistol targets at 50', both with .22 and .45.

It looks like my groups are smaller with the smaller black

Just a thought and suggestion to try it and see if it helps

JHHolliday wrote:Possibly related: AMU training guide talks about using smaller blacks to improve.  I mostly have 50' at the range where I shoot, and occasionally 75'.  Typically I shoot targets designed for 50' - slow and timed.  But as an experiment I shot some of my 10m  air pistol targets at 50', both with .22 and .45.

It looks like my groups are smaller with the smaller black

Just a thought and suggestion to try it and see if it helps

Sounds corny but...

Aim small, miss small.(?)

Before looking at what you are doing wrong, check accuracy of the gun! When using a Ransom rest I make sure the red dot (if used) is always at the same location. Rubber inserts for the rest seem to move!
 No matter how well you shoot if the gun is not accurate at 50 yards you will never learn to shoot a good score!

Froneck wrote:Before looking at what you are doing wrong, check accuracy of the gun! When using a Ransom rest I make sure the red dot (if used) is always at the same location. Rubber inserts for the rest seem to move!
 No matter how well you shoot if the gun is not accurate at 50 yards you will never learn to shoot a good score!

That was the first thing I checked. It is dead nuts

Aim small, miss small?

I disagree. When I try to shoot tens and X's, I either hesitate (chicken finger) or I try to snatch the fleeting X (jerking the shoot). When I accept the wobble and try to shoot black (or whatever my hold is on that particular day, I shoot more tens and X's.

Am I to assume your gun will shoot a .45" group at 50feet? Compared to NRA B-2 target that has the 7 ring at 3.07" and NRA B-11 6 ring of 2.85 the 6 on your photo target is actually an 8 if the B-2 were used.
 One problem you might have is squeezing the hand not just the trigger finger, another your wrist is not locked.
 If you intend to shoot 50yards you need to check your gun at that range.
 I admit I had to reread your post, I was thinking you were shooting at 50yards at a International reduced 50yard target. Checking the rule book I see the B-11 is a reduced 50meter target to 50feet.
 Another thing is how are you picking up the gun? Never pick-up the gun with the shooting hand, pick it up with the non shooting hand and place it in the shooting hand! If it don't feel good, again use the other hand to remove the gun and replace it, don't milk the grip!

I do believe my grip is too light. It is one of the reasons I struggle with 45acp.... I think I will struggle with this for some time. I learned marksmanship via 3&4 position small bore rifle. In that discipline, any pressure from the trigger hand that is greater than the force required to press the trigger (typically 8 to 32 ounces) is usually detrimental to good scores.

At 50 feet, the only practical limitation of my .22 is the hand that presses the trigger. From a rest I can put 5 rounds on a nickle (Eley Match or RWS 50) CCI SV opens up to a quarter, and Fed AM is just a bit bigger. I figure these groups are as big as they are due to aberrations in my hold/eyes.

I do typically pick up the pistol with my weak hand and settle it (them) in my strong hand.

You show a slow fire target, what does your timed and rapid targets look like? How long do you hold the gun on target before firing the shot? Longer than 20seconds?

Froneck wrote:You show a slow fire target, what does your timed and rapid targets look like? How long do you hold the gun on target before firing the shot? Longer than 20seconds?

I do not hold the pistol up for more than 20sec during slow fire. I have been working on slowing down that pace, abandoning shot attempts that do not feel right, and pausing to avoid muscle/eye fatigue.

I generally shoot low 90's during sustained fire indoors. I think my scores will go down when turning targets are introduced, as my regular range does not have this feature.

My usual scores for 30 shots (indoors) are in the 250-270 range. I leave the most points due to low and left hits, and to hurrying shots (poor pace, I think
).

I'm a bit confused, topic has 50yards yet your shooting a 50foot International target. What distance are you shooting? When you stated test fire for group size it's spot on. At what range, if 50yards what size group is spot on?

Froneck wrote:I'm a bit confused, topic has 50yards yet your shooting a 50foot International target. What distance are you shooting? When you stated test fire for group size it's spot on. At what range, if 50yards what size group is spot on?

The B11 is an example of my skill level at 50'. That is all. My difficulties are at 50 yds. My results were so poor at 50yds that no diagnosis is nigh impossible. I've received some good advice and have a training plan.

OK I understand! Again you claim accuracy of the pistol is spot-on, define spot-on in group size at 50 yards/ What gun are you using?

Froneck wrote:OK I understand! Again you claim accuracy of the pistol is spot-on, define spot-on in group size at 50 yards/ What gun are you using?

I use a S&W model 22A. 5.5". Trigger weight hovers around 2lb-4oz. I use an Ultradot Matchdot II.

At 50yds with CCI SV I can make a 1.25" group on bags. I am sure that Eley Match would be a bit smaller. The group size is primarily due to my bodily influence, and the size of the 2moa UD reticle. Out of a RR, the pistol is very likely to make a group half that size or much smaller.

It ain't the gun, in this case......

Being your trigger is 2lbs-4oz you can measure in oz, what is the hover-around amount? Do you have photo of your 50yard shooting?