Proper way to close the slide on a 1911 Target Pistol

First topic message reminder :

New to me manual of arms for a Match 1911:

Proper way to release the slide of a Target 1911:

With the slide locked to the rear: Thumb the hammer back while releasing the slide with the slide release
Or: Pull the trigger back while pulling the slide back and releasing.
Explanation from a Vet with 40 years of Bullseye Competition:

You're holding the modified hammer hooks off the sear. The two item have been modified with a trigger job and are usually about half as much engagement as would be left unmodified, this can just bounce forward from the slide momentum. Then it should hit the half cock notch. But that also gets shorted in the trigger job. The half cock notch should hold? But if it sears off, then it's a full auto trigger... This is unusual to see, but it has happened. 
If your not ready, a full auto 1911 is a hand full. It will twist in your hand so fast, with luck the last round will be fired straight up.
That loading procedure comes from the military, and Roddy still instructs new shooters with his trigger jobs to load that way. 

When your firing the pistol, it should complete the cycling, before you have released the trigger to reset.

I had no idea...

From Random and from hand 1st shot will typically vertical string. But 10 ring is pretty big
Good Shooting!
Jon

P.S. I once won a pistol at a match because shooter shot one into the dirt loading his pistol.

Jon Eulette wrote:

IJack H wrote:How about holding neither hammer or trigger.  Just grab the dot and let it forward by hand.

Will vertical string at 50 yds

The way I shoot these days, I'd never notice. 

I think I peaked in mid 1970s, and again in 2004. 
I might have noticed in the 70s if I wasn't shooting HS and OMM 38 SAO

Jack H wrote:How about holding neither hammer or trigger.  Just grab the dot and let it forward by hand.

+1 That is how I do all my rail mounted scoped pistols. Have not noticed first shot being off call. I bring it back a little to release stop and ease it forward.

I don’t ease it all the way forward. Just about half way then let it fall. Finger off the trigger always.

Is it bad to just insert the magazine and push the slide stop down letting her go home chambering the next round without holding hammer or trigger?

Tim:H11 wrote:Is it bad to just insert the magazine and push the slide stop down letting her go home chambering the next round without holding hammer or trigger?

 My local BE gunsmith uses this method and I trust he would not do this if it was going to cause an issue.

...and some guns are different. I recall a Smith 52 discharging when a 1911 wouldn't.  I would have to go back and verify the details.

bruce martindale wrote:...and some guns are different. I recall a Smith 52 discharging when a 1911 wouldn't.  I would have to go back and verify the details.

That's a good point. If you get used to pulling the trigger every time you drop the slide does that work on every pistol you own?

I actually tested it on every pistol I own. Worked on almost everything.

Don't forget and try that method on this 45acp.

Bill Wilson, in his book “The Combat 45” is an advocate of holding the trigger back as the slide goes forward. He states in his book, that this is the proper way to drop the slide as it protects the sear surfaces.  I have had one negligent discharge following this technique. Round went harmlessly down range, but it sure started the heck out of me!.
Holding the hammer back, on a pistol with a beavertail is impractical. So you are either going to keep your finger off the trigger and drop the slide, or you hold the trigger back and drop the slide. I can’t say that keeping the finger on the trigger protects the sear surfaces any better than not keeping the finger on the trigger. I have a factory Les Baer Wadcutter, and I have been dropping the slide with my finger out of the trigger guard. One negligent discharge is enough for me!

You would think that patting your head and rubbing your stomach is easy and mistake free. This video, shows the fallacy  of this belief:






It is easy to get things out of sequence.  Loading a musket, you tore the cartridge, dropped the charge down the barrel, followed by the paper, and then rammed the Minie on top. Pull the hammer back, cap the nipple.  In the excitement of battle, even  trained men got the sequence out of order:

Why the guns at Gettysburg were found loaded


https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/08/30/guns-gettysburg-found-loaded/

The numbers we have today state that at least 27,574 rifles were recovered, although some sources claim the number to be as high as 37,000. Of the weapons that were salvaged, an incredible 24,000 rifles were still loaded (that’s either 87% or 63%, depending on which estimate you accept.) Of the total number, half had been loaded more than once, and a quarter had been reloaded multiple times. Apparently, one poor soldier had reloaded his weapon twenty-three times, but the weird thing is that he never fired a single shot.

Drop the powder, ram the bullet, or ram the bullet and drop the powder?    Hard to get right when canister is tearing holes in your ranks.


 

I have been told by Civil War rein actors, they don't allow ramming a blank charge, because too many ram rods went downrange at the opposing side! I have a recollection of real Civil War Soldiers, in their books,  mentioning ram rods being shot in battle.

I think the squeeze cocker went out of production because it was easy to get the firing order confused.  To fire the pistol, you had to squeeze the front strap, then pull the trigger.

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I have no doubt,  in a stressful environment, you ca n be confused about the  sequence.   I have verified with a friend’s pistol, that if you pull the trigger , then squeeze the front strap, the gun will fire.  Oopsie Doopsie !    I  “heard” that had happened with Police, can’t prove that, but  having multiple NG with law enforcement would certainly make a handgun unpopular  with Management!.

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Slamfire wrote:... He states in his book, that this is the proper way to drop the slide as it protects the sear surfaces.  I have had one negligent discharge following this technique. Round went harmlessly down range, but it sure started the heck out of me!.

So, I'm looking at this issue from the standpoint of someone unfamiliar and inexperienced.

Being fairly versed in mechanical design and mechanisms, but ignorant of many of the intricacies of sear/hammer interactions I've been trying to understand what extra wear of possible damage is avoided. Watching various videos and animations (http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/1911-a-1-cutaway/1911-a-1-hammer-sear-animated-cutaway.htm) over and over I have to admit I don't get it.

Found one excellent page that explains the operation: https://animagraffs.com/how-a-handgun-works-1911-45/
Seems that regardless of whether the the trigger is pulled or not, the sear slides on the hammer and the two locking surfaces engage after the slide is all the way back to move the sear past the detent on the hammer and then the slide comes forward again and the surfaces will be engaged with the hammer coming to rest against the sear. If my understanding is correct, the only difference in forces experienced by the hammer and sear surfaces that would be different between trigger pulled and trigger not pulled would be the pressure of the leaf spring pushing on trigger and disconnector. How much damage could be caused?
Seems as confusing to me as the admonition I've had to NEVER drop the slide on an unloaded gun. Really? Bolt hits barrel/chamber ever time the gun is fired. Only the force to strip a round out of the magazine is missing.

IMO one is too many. Particularly when the solution is so damned simple. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you want the gun to fire. From my view as a new firearms user and long time air gun user who has always since my teens known never to touch the trigger unless you want to shoot something the idea of a process that has to involve trigger manipulation is simply anathema to my thinking. And if something with the firearm makes it prone to NDs then safety analysis would say to make the firearm safer before requiring a modified process from the user.

I just can't think that putting a bit of extra wear above the simple cardinal trigger rule. And if the required process is to make loading safe, well that's a gun I don't want to use and not sure it should be on the line. Particularly as the admitted danger isn't simply a single ND fired downrange or into the dirt but the possibility of the pistol going full auto. It simply seems to be an admission that the gun has been modified past the point of being safe.

After starting all of this I, personally, am holding the hammer back (because I can, I realize some can not for mechanical reasons) and releasing the slide...

I don't know where the wear issue started but even in KC's response he said nothing about wear.  I do agree that it is best just to keep your finger away from the trigger because most all negligent discharges are software related.  Keeping the trigger back is the way to prevent a mechanical discharge which is usually due to a trigger job that's on the ragged edge.

KC "As a pistolsmith this is where I'll chime in.  You should ALWAYS hold the trigger fully to the rear any time you're dropping the slide.  Whether it be from slide stop or slingshot, the trigger should be held to the rear to ensure the safest possible condition when letting the slide go into battery."


As mentioned in a previous post this basically mimics the action when you are shooting, because after you shoot you have to "reset" the trigger before the gun goes bang again.

Having said that I still keep my finger off because that's the way I trained starting 58 years ago and it is ingrained.

- Dave

if your trigger is failing and follows it is gonna follow with or without your finger on the trigger.

Chris Miceli wrote:if your trigger is failing and follows it is gonna follow with or without your finger on the trigger.

Not necessarily,  there is a point where trigger bounce could be enough to cause a discharge if half cock is marginal, but if sear and half cock are both marginal you are correct, it won't matter.  
- Dave

While at the range today I gave it a try.  Held the trigger back and released the slide.  Worked well but was a little unnerving and don't think I will adopt this method.  I always let the slide close easy by riding it all the way close when there is a empty chamber and mag.  I shoot far to many model guns to count on holding the trigger back will work on every gun.  Besides it is hard to teach a old dog new tricks.  Don

"...Seems as confusing to me as the admonition I've had to NEVER drop the slide on an unloaded gun. Really? Bolt hits barrel/chamber ever time the gun is fired. Only the force to strip a round out of the magazine is missing...."

Another bucket of worms.  The simple difference of the sound and feel of a slide dropped on an empty  vs a loaded $3000+ target gun is enough for me to not do it as a general practice.

Axehandle wrote:"...Seems as confusing to me as the admonition I've had to NEVER drop the slide on an unloaded gun. Really? Bolt hits barrel/chamber ever time the gun is fired. Only the force to strip a round out of the magazine is missing...."

Another bucket of worms.  The simple difference of the sound and feel of a slide dropped on an empty  vs a loaded $3000+ target gun is enough for me to not do it as a general practice.

Just not to be rude I'm certainly never going to do it again on someone else's firearm.

From another forum, I think I'll stick to the following: 

Essentially, there are three scenarios being discussed here:
1. Slide locked back, loaded mag inserted and seated fully, and empty chamber. To load, either (a) use the slide release, or (b) slingshot the slide to allow the spring to do the work. Do NOT (c) ride the slide home.
2. Slide locked back, no mag inserted, round manually dropped in chamber. Don't do it--not by (a) riding the slide home, nor (b) by using the slide release, nor (c) by slingshot of the slide. Just don't do it.
3. Slide locked back, no mag inserted, empty chamber. Don't (a) use the slide release, nor (b) slingshot the slide. ONLY (c) ride the slide home.

Seems like these would have been interesting and informative as part of the firearms safety courses I was required to follow.

1, 2, and 3 that is how i was taught.  When you hand me your gun to look at I don't care if you checked it yourself while I watched.  I am going to pull the slide back far enough to see the mag follower and the empty chamber.  I will then ride the slide forward.  I will try to keep my fingers off the medal as mush as possible and please don't be offended if I wipe my gun off after you handle it.  I been taught this when I was probably 10 years old and am not about to change.  I really think blued guns rusted more in the 50s then they do now but it is still a good practice.  Don

I believe the potential issue is with slam fires on pistols with 16lb recoil springs in ball guns.  For most wad guns this should not be an issue.  Considering we can now load lighter for CMP we can eliminate the 16lb recoil springs.

This thread came to mind while on the line at Perry this past week. Twice on my relay the command to load was given immediately followed by a "BANG". I wonder, was it caused by careless finger placement or by attempting to use the slide release method discussed in this thread? I also wonder how the other 9 shots printed, I know my concentration would have been in the toilet if it happened to me.

I am under the impression that the best way to release the slide when it is locked back and a loaded mag is in the gun is to use the slide lock lever.  This is more consistent than slingshotting or riding the slide forward and therefore gives you a more consistent first shot.  Is this correct, or are there multiple views as to how to correctly release the slide?
Jeff

I like Lens way.slide back just enough to release slide lock, then release slide. Mimics firi g sequence.

If you slingshot try do so with no variation.  To do this you have to grip the slide with a firm enough grip so that when you reach the end of the slide's rearward movement it slips out of your grasp and moves into battery.  Dropping the slide this way is like what happens during a shot - the slide goes all the way back, or very close too it.  Anything less and it's different from when you take a shot.  I've had more than one gun put the 1st shot out of the group when using the slide lock, especially with light recoil springs.  I use the slide lock on my Hammerli & Pardini and the slingshot on my 45 & 38 Super.
YMMV
- Dave

Chris Miceli wrote:if your trigger is failing and follows it is gonna follow with or without your finger on the trigger.

You’d be surprised! I’ve been building BE pistols since 89. Many of the pistols from old school builders had hammer follow and were shot like that for years with no issues. Old school shooters held trigger back when loading the pistol. So it’s actually still fairly common.
Jon