Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

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Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by mikemyers on 7/13/2018, 5:01 pm

Just a very generalized hypothetical question.  

Suppose one is shooting Magnus bullets (I think 801, but all my notes are back home) with 3.8 grains of Bullseye powder.  There will be a certain amount of "felt recoil".

Now, suppose you switch to 4 grains of Bullseye, an increase of 0.2 grains.

Would the shooter be able to notice the difference, based on the noise when the gun fires, the height the gun would go up to from recoil, and the felt recoil itself?  Would most Bullseye guns experience a similar change, based on 0.2 grains of powder?

......or would everything "feel" the same, but the bullet would be going slightly faster?
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by CR10X on 7/13/2018, 5:11 pm

M1 x V1 will always equal M2 x V2.

How much difference that is felt is dependent upon the observer.

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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by zanemoseley on 7/13/2018, 6:01 pm

You may notice more difference going to a slower powder like WST than you will likely see in a .2 grain difference. 

If I recall you're shooting a slide mount dot, put in a 10 pound recoil spring then drop the charge to just a bit more than needed to cycle reliably keeping in mind it will need a bit more powder to cycle in cool weather. Once you get good enough you can start testing for 50 yard accuracy, if your scores are moderate you'll likely lose more points to a hotter 50 yard loading due to flinch than you'll gain in accuracy.


Last edited by zanemoseley on 7/14/2018, 12:22 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by Tim:H11 on 7/13/2018, 10:42 pm

mikemyers wrote:
Now, suppose you switch to 4 grains of Bullseye, an increase of 0.2 grains.

Would the shooter be able to notice the difference, based on the noise when the gun fires, the height the gun would go up to from recoil, and the felt recoil itself?  Would most Bullseye guns experience a similar change, based on 0.2 grains of powder?

......or would everything "feel" the same, but the bullet would be going slightly faster?

If you've been shooting for a long time, you've really learned to focus on whats going on throughout the shot, and you've got a good feel for whats happening then you might (and I really mean might) feel something. Generally people don't feel it but there are some shooters out there that can.
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by mikemyers on 7/13/2018, 10:58 pm

Three quick thoughts...

First, none of that answered my question, but "....than you will likely see in a .2 grain difference" sort of answered it - apparently not much of a difference.

Second, I have a lot more to learn, to understand what both of you are saying.  M1 and V1    .....I guess you're saying that if the powder charge goes up, the velocity goes up, so mass x velocity from the bullet's increase in speed = mass x velocity of the recoil.  If so, then my question of how much of a difference .2 grains of Bullseye would make is still unanswered.  Zanemoseley, yes, in this case I'm shooting a Salyer wad gun with a rail and Aimpoint sight on top of the slide.  I don't know what spring I have now, nor am I sure how to measure it.  I guess I can buy a 10 pound spring, but I've never done any testing for accuracy.  I've just been using the suggested loads from this forum and from Terry.

Third, I am very puzzled by a test I made yesterday, and that led to this post.  I'm visiting my brother, and I asked him to film me as I fired off five rounds, so I can see if I'm doing better than the last time I did this two years ago, and so I can find mistakes I might be making.  He filmed the video, which I will ask about once I get both the "normal" and quarter speed versions uploaded to YouTube.

What puzzles me is the first two, and last two rounds all felt, pretty much the same, along in the rise of the gun due to recoil.  The third round sounded and felt much "hotter", with the gun rising noticeably more than in the other times.  This is loads from four months ago, when I was still learning how to do things correctly, and asking questions.  The only thing I can think of is that there was more powder in that round than the others.  Whatever it was, it passed the "Lockout Die" with no problems.  I figure I must have done something incorrectly, or the powder dispenser somehow put in too much powder.  My "acceptable range" was 3.8 to 4.0 grains of Bullseye.

Since then, I got all the dies and the press working better, and all the rounds I checked on the weight scale were fine.  I got better myself at being  more consistent in operating the press, and as of ten days ago or so, I've got the auto-index kit mounted.  

Once I get the video uploaded, so I can post it, I would be very appreciative of any feedback.  The video (especially the slow motion video) clearly shows how high the gun got after firing.  On the positive side, I can't see my hands shift at all on the gun as it fires, maybe because I've learned more, and maybe also because of the sharkskin grips that would shred my hand if the gun did slip.  

Anyway, this led me to wondering if .2 grains of powder could explain the difference in height of the gun after it fired.



....and something I need to figure out, the good shooters don't allow the gun to get very high during recoil.  My gun tilts back around 45 degrees.  Maybe I need to learn how to lock my wrists better.....   but I'll ask that after I post the video.

Thanks, and I hope the above wasn't excessively confusing.  There's a lot that I don't understand, and every time I learn something new, I find out that there are even more things yet to be learned....
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by Tim:H11 on 7/13/2018, 11:42 pm

Your question was simple. It basically boils down to “will I notice a 0.2 grain difference in the powder charge based on feel or muzzle rise?” 

My answer was simple and limited to “Maybe. Maybe not. Some people can notice it, others cant.” 

If your post mentioning “none of that answered my question” is referring to the answer given by CR10X then I think you figured it out in your own thoughts you listed above. 

My advice would be to keep the science to this sport to a minimum. Shoot what you can shoot well. All the rest doesn’t matter as much as some people make it out to be. Yes the finer details of load development are important to make sure you’re using the best ammo but you have to use what works best for you from the hand. Not from a test result.
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by LenV on 7/13/2018, 11:50 pm

I see Tim:H11 answered before I could look this up but since I went to the effort. My opinion, No. you won't be able to feel the difference. From experience. It takes more then that to tell in the middle of a load range. Technical answer.  http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp   The first two answer while being less exact are all you probably need.

Len


http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 12:17 am

Thanks - what you guys posted makes sense.  This leaves me with other questions, but what I was asking when I posted this is now answered.


Tim wrote: "My advice would be to keep the science to this sport to a minimum. Shoot what you can shoot well. All the rest doesn’t matter as much as some people make it out to be."    When I'm at the range shooting, I ignore all this "other" stuff, and just concentrate on what I'm doing.  But when I get home, and I've got free time to wonder about things, like right now, all this other stuff comes up.  I'd like to be able to DO, and I'd also like to be able to UNDERSTAND.
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by LenV on 7/14/2018, 12:19 am

Recoil Impulse          3.8    0.60           4.0   0.63

Velocity recoil fps               5.99                  6.26

Free Recoil ft/lbs                1.81                  1.98


I did the numbers for you.
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by Tim:H11 on 7/14/2018, 12:22 am

mikemyers wrote:Thanks - what you guys posted makes sense.  This leaves me with other questions, but what I was asking when I posted this is now answered.


Tim wrote: "My advice would be to keep the science to this sport to a minimum. Shoot what you can shoot well. All the rest doesn’t matter as much as some people make it out to be."    When I'm at the range shooting, I ignore all this "other" stuff, and just concentrate on what I'm doing.  But when I get home, and I've got free time to wonder about things, like right now, all this other stuff comes up.  I'd like to be able to DO, and I'd also like to be able to UNDERSTAND.

It’s a deep rabbit hole Alice.... lol!
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 9:47 am

Ha!  Bottomless is more like it!!

I agree with the people who watched the video I posted that the powder charge was too high, not just the 0.2 grains which I have accepted.

Regarding reloading, maybe this is now resolved.  I have installed the auto-index kit, I have bought a mirror kit that will allow me to see better into each case before I cap it with a bullet, and I bought one of the "plates" that goes into the powder hopper to help it maintain a constant charge.

Thank, Alice.
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 9:52 am

LenV wrote:Recoil Impulse          3.8    0.60           4.0   0.63

Velocity recoil fps               5.99                  6.26

Free Recoil ft/lbs                1.81                  1.98


I did the numbers for you.
Thanks, Len.  Maybe when you have time, you can post how you did the math???  

Not much difference, from what you've done.  

Maybe I will load for 3.8 grains from now on.
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by zanemoseley on 7/14/2018, 10:39 am

Also your powder cop is not going to avoid .2 grain variations. I go from 3.8 grains to 4.5 grains of WST with no adjustment of the powder cop, think of it as protection against a squib or double charge, they will catch those 100% of the time. The plate you're referring to is a powder baffle and is designed to keep the powder "pressure" more consistent as the level changes in the hopper.

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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 11:57 am

Thanks - the Lockout Die is only for the extremes; it hasn't yet found a bad load, and I hope it stays that way.  I feel good that it's there, but it's NO excuse to get sloppy.  You've got me curious - when I get home, I'll do some tests to see what the actual minimum and maximum values are, on my press, with Bullseye, and the 45 ACP.

How useful is the powder baffle?  Does it help with all powders, or only some?
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by chopper on 7/14/2018, 12:16 pm

I like my powder baffle in my dillon 500 as I'll load up 500 rds at a crack and it seems to drop them quite accurately when I check them about every 50-100 rds. I usually wipe out the seating and crimp die at 100 so I'll check a load then.
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Re: Effect of small powder change on felt recoil

Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 3:21 pm

When I first started reloading, 30 or so years ago,  nobody ever told me I needed to clean the dies, so I never did.  They came on and off the press from switching between 44 and 45, but no cleaning.  

I guess I should add that to my maintenance list....
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