Scoping your shots?

Maybe scoping your shots on the short line isn't such a great idea? Training today, decided to shoot a regular 900 with the .22 just to see if I could better myself from a match a couple weeks ago. Shot my slow fire, about average for a sharpshooter. First five shots of timed fire felt good, so I took a peek in the scope. 5-Xs. (See picture) Now a Master or High Master would see that, and nod his head and think yep, exactly where I called them. A Sharpshooter sees that and thinks, damn, I could get a 100-10x out of this! Then blow it. (See second picture) I followed up with four 9s and a 7. So how does a Sharpshooter go from blowing it like I did, to smiling and following up with 5 more Xs like a Master would do? Train, train, train? Then train some more?

Funny you should mention that.

Did pretty much the same last Sunday. Put up a target and decided I was going to shoot ten consecutive X's. Loaded five and called all five as X's. Loaded five more and called the next two as X's, and then got stupid and decided to look in the scope to verify all seven really were X's. Sure were, and then proceeded to shoot two 10's and a nine...  

I seldom use a scope for that reason. The Ostrich method works best for me.

I shoot slow fire at a very methodical cadence and stopping and scoping seems to break my mojo.

Been there.  Done that.  It can be a nemesis.  Setting an extremely high standard that has to be met.  And knowing that any deviation from perfect mental state will interfere.  That is tough to do.

First thing: Don't evaluate for good, bad, etc.  Check that the group is on call and leave it at that.  If you come up with anything else, you will change your process that gave you the first string.

It goes away with experience. I'm expert going on master. When you've never cleaned a target or only done it a couple times it really gets in your head. Just not scoping the short line will help if you're letting yourself get amxious. You'll get to the point where you're getting 100's every match or at least every other. Once it's not so special you keep your focus better. Still fun to get 100's but not associated to as much anxiety. You also learn a 99 is nearly as good score wise, one point over 10 shots is acceptable.

@ZM
Exactly.  Head games and experience.

What's the difference between a HM or MA scoping the shot(s) and Marksman, SS, Expert (some) scoping the the shot(s)?

The HM and MA are simply looking to see if the shot was on call.  The other are generally looking to see where the shot went.

If scoping surprises you about the shot value, then scoping is not the issue.  You should generally know the placement of the shot(s) and a feeling of the overall points anyway.  Scoping the shot(s) and seeing it should not make any difference.  

But learning that and controlling the feelings does take some time.  Leave the expectations at home, simple do and see and reflect on the results later.  And being "excited" can have positive benefits, let the upside keep you up and the any downside should be ignored. Look at the group and say good job, ignore the flyers.......

Is it possible that it is just a coincidence that after you checked your group through the scope, your next string was not as good? It's hard to shoot five Xs in a row. The odds of doing that for two consecutive strings are quite low. It is 99% likely that you would not shoot all Xs on the second string, whether you checked through the scope or not.

Sharpshooter is a good time to learn the importance of compartmentalization that is needed to scope your shots and capitalize on the feedback that you get from doing so.

Better to learn it as early as possible.

You had an opportunity to shoot six consecutive Xs. Put yourself in that position as often as possible if you want to shoot seven.

The same goes for eight, nine, ten...all the way up to 270.

So for the HM shooters...when you see that a couple shots are not on call, what do you do?  Adjust sights?

mpolans wrote:So for the HM shooters...when you see that a couple shots are not on call, what do you do?  Adjust sights?

Depends on how far off call and where they are, but usually yes. I do use my screwdriver.

From yesterday's training journal:

"Service pistol SF: 20 rounds. 7-7 right on top of each other at 12:30. Came down 5 clicks. Remaining 18 shots were 4 Xs, 9 10s, and 5 9s. Sights crisper than the other day."

John thanks for posting that, I do an OK job documenting but one thing I neglect is lighting conditions and having shot rifle in the past I should know better.
- Dave

john bickar wrote:

mpolans wrote:So for the HM shooters...when you see that a couple shots are not on call, what do you do?  Adjust sights?

Depends on how far off call and where they are, but usually yes. I do use my screwdriver.

From yesterday's training journal:

"Service pistol SF: 20 rounds. 7-7 right on top of each other at 12:30. Came down 5 clicks. Remaining 18 shots were 4 Xs, 9 10s, and 5 9s. Sights crisper than the other day."

Thank you. We need more good examples.

Yes, good example John.  An SC guard High Master once told me that, if you trust your call, don't be afraid to crank the sights.  One doesn't need to know specifically what has changed.

My first time at Perry, P100, 700am, with bright sunrise, no sighters, I really had to crank after my first two shots.  Later years, same time, same range, same match, I start way off of my usual settings, with my "Perry" settings.  A single point (or X) has made the difference between making P100 or going home with the P101 pin.

What might have happened that required a five click adjustment since the last time you shot it? Ammo change?

I'm only shooting a Marvel and nothing ever changes. This is probably why I'm not tuned in to all of the scope usage, as shots are just where I call them at 25 yds. Just beginning to shoot at 50 yds though and admittedly a bit tougher to call as accurately so far, but X's are still on call.

Thanks for the example as I really need to start keeping notes.

I can say the process is most important not the outcome. I finally got With Winning in Mind on cd 2 weeks ago and retained more from it than when I read the book (ADHD). The part where he stresses process before outcome has sure helped.
 I usually shoot about 780-795 in 22, at Saturdays match I shot a personal best 833 with 281-9x nmc including 98-6x rapid and  then a 99-4x and 87-3x in timed. The rest of that match was great.
 Then came the CF match, I was scoping my first 3 Slow fire shots to see my placement, wow, 10s then didn't look through it again. Went up to score the Master next to me and glanced at my target all were low. Lessons learned:look directly in my spotter and don't forget to set my sights for the long line (bonehead).
 I got frazzeled and couldn"t get my mind back in it, never broke into 700 for CF or 45. Lesson learned:remember to keep your shot plan in the box your using and learn how to calm your nerves after a mistake, trust and believe in your trigger. I don't think you can catch up on the next shot if ya don't process and execute the shot your shooting.  
 Iv'e always had trouble with the 1911 but have shot ocassional 750-760s a year ago.
 John where did you get your training journal from, does Lanny Bassham's Journals work okay or did you outline you own? I'd love to see your outline for one if you don't mind. I think recording training and match shooting is the only way I will progress. 
 None the less I felt really good about Saturdays match overall and will advance my experiences to the better. I have goals.
 Thank you all for the time, Stan

DA/SA wrote:What might have happened that required a five click adjustment since the last time you shot it?

That's really the ongoing question. It will depend. Sometimes (although infrequently) I will have an unexplained group shift of as many as 5 clicks. This happened much more often when I shot iron sights exclusively, so much so that I kept notes for sight settings for individual ranges. (Note that this WAS for an iron sights gun.)

This time, I'm not sure. I may have inadvertently "doubled up" my 25->50 yard adjustment. I may have a loose rear sight. I hope the JB Weld that I applied last night will take care of the latter, and proper attention to my technical process will take care of the former.

My experience has led me to believe that group shifts may come from lighting, head position, grip, trigger squeeze, in roughly that order of influence.

So, I scope my shots.

OP started a very similar topic some time ago in which we discussed the same thing. I guess he forgot.

Search "scoping" here and on TargetTalk if you're interested in other things I've posted on the matter. I do have an opinion.

Thank You, John!

The information that you and others provide is greatly appreciated.