Nelson Conversion Kit

First topic message reminder :


(Photo updated July 23, 2019 with Baer lower)


After a lot of thought and browsing, I ordered a Nelson Conversion Kit several months ago, not expecting it to arrive until September, but it showed up several weeks ago.  I left it sitting in the box until I had some free time.

I installed it this afternoon on my Salyer Caspian, after watching a few videos of how these kits work.  Everything went so smoothly, I was amazed.  It's now on the gun, but I will wait until Monday to call the people at Nelson, and ask a few questions.

Anyone here have any advice or suggestions to get the most out of these kits?

One of the videos showed a fellow installing a Marvel conversion, and then he squeezed out what looks like Wilson grease all over the kit - it reminded me of dispensing ketchup onto a hamburger.  I'm sure that is wrong, but that leads to a question - is there a guide I haven't found yet that recommends what to do regarding lubrication?

Next, since it's a 22, I assume dry-firing is out unless I find some dummy rounds so the gun won't be damaged.  Is this correct?

Is CCI Standard Velocity ammo best for it?

I bought it with a rail, and I think a light-weight sight would be best for me, but my Aimpoint Micro has a Kodiak mount that won't fit onto the rail.  I think I'll buy the standard Aimpoint mount, which should work fine.  In the meantime, I mounted my Matchdot II (which I bought through this forum). Any recommendations for which sights work best?  I found a discussion about using it with an Aimpoint 9000sc.  I could put that on as well.  Is that overkill?

Not sure what I was expecting, but the Nelson Conversion Kit is just plain beautiful.  It looks well made, it seems to be easy to use, and it was effortless to install.  It's everything I expected, and a lot more.  I was on the phone for well over an hour discussing the kit with the people at Nelson before I bought it, and it seems to me it was worth the long wait.  I had looked at the other sources of conversion kits, and I kept coming back to the Nelson.  I guess my "test" of it, will be how it shoots for me compared to my Model 41.  One nice thing is it "feels" the same as the 45 Springfield I'm now using.  My hands go to the same positions, and the weight feels very similar, maybe a little heavier probably due to the sight (the 45 has an Ultradot L/T which feels like it weighs nothing...)

My next match is in two weeks.  I was planning on using my Model 41, but it had so many "issues" I was thinking of using a revolver.  I think I solved the issues, but if I get used to the Nelson, that's another option.

I like Harrison Custom spur hammers.
The hammer IS supposed to push against the bottom of the slide during the cycling process. Do not shorten/file it.
A 45 trigger job is simple in comparison to a 22 conversion. Conversions cycle at a higher rate and require proper fitting of parts.
Jon

Mike, I just have the Nelson plastic mags.
Wish I could be of more help!

Bob, thanks - I would like to use the plastic mags if they work as intended.

Jon, after finding nothing at Brownell's or MidwayUSA, I went to the Harrison Custom website.  I found this from doing a search:
https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/search?q=hammer

That shows four choices currently available,
Extreme service slotted commander.  (you told me a commander hammer won't drop in,
Retro Hammer. (looks reasonable)
Original Commander Hammer. (again, excluded) and
Concealed Carry Hammer

The HD-131 Retro Hammer looks promising, but not the others.  Is this what you were suggesting?  

mikemyers wrote:Bob, thanks - I would like to use the plastic mags if they work as intended.

Over a case of CCI SV through my Nelson using their plastic mags with no issues.  I also bought plastic MagPro's for my Marvel(s) and never had a mag related problem again.
- Dave

Jon Eulette wrote:I like Harrison Custom spur hammers.
The hammer IS supposed to push against the bottom of the slide during the cycling process. Do not shorten/file it.
A 45 trigger job is simple in comparison to a 22 conversion. Conversions cycle at a higher rate and require proper fitting of parts.
Jon

Whelp, there you go. I will leave the gunsmithing to the gunsmiths. My apologies.

Dave

Thanks; I guess nothing much is going to happen until I get my Caspian working again, most likely next week, and I start using the Nelson again.  I may not have all the new parts by then, but I should have enough to start shooting.  

Thanks to Jon, my issue of the slide scraping on the hammer is not an issue - it's normal.  I can forget about it.
I think I'll have the new trigger mounted. but that has nothing to do with the Nelson.
The issues that applied to the Springfield won't matter, as the Caspian is different.  

I hope to talk to Larry or Kevin early next week, but I'd like to try the Nelson again before I call them.

Before I shoot it again, I want to test my "dummy rounds" with the Caspian to be sure they cycle through the gun as expected.

I also want to disassemble the new slide, so I know it and the barrel are clean, and the moving parts are lubricated.


Thanks for all the information.  For the time being, the Springfield is changed back to 45, and if I work on it again, that will be in several weeks.  One gun at a time.  

(I guess you can all laugh at me as another "newbie", but this is the first time I've ever fully disassembled a 1911.  I hope it goes back together as easily as it came apart.   :-)     I would like this discussion to get back to only being about the Nelson, not the gun I'm mounting it on.)

Ok, so no gunsmithing, but just to make sure.... Have you tried the 8# recoil spring?

I haven't tried the 8# spring yet.  I figure I should be doing one thing at a time.
I have yet to learn how to disassemble the Nelson, at which point I can re-assemble with the extra 8# spring that came with it.  

What changes are you expecting to find from the 8# spring?
For that matter, what spring comes standard in the Nelson?

I wonder what the definition of "gunsmithing" is.  I don't think I've reached that point yet.
My definition of "gunsmithing"......   something like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87LLCxZPdzA.   Jon could probably do it blindfolded in his sleep.  To me, it's WAY over the line.

I'm hoping to get the Nelson going in the next 10 days, so I can shoot it at the "fun pistol match" at our club.

mikemyers wrote:I haven't tried the 8# spring yet.  I figure I should be doing one thing at a time.
I have yet to learn how to disassemble the Nelson, at which point I can re-assemble with the extra 8# spring that came with it.  

What changes are you expecting to find from the 8# spring?
For that matter, what spring comes standard in the Nelson?

According to their website it comes with a 9# spring and a spare 8# spring.  

Are you keeping a log of all the changes you make and the results so you can get back to where you started?  If not you should start now.

- Dave

Dave, regarding the Nelson, I haven't changed anything yet.  

I document whatever changes I make to my Model 41.
The Salyer Springfield I don't change.
The Salyer Caspian I will document what, when, and where.

I know how useful logs can be - I have a two page log I wrote up for everything I did to the Model 52 I was fixing.  I can repeat any of that, as I have the notes.  The Caspian I don't have anything to write yet.  I also take photos of anything I'm working on, which I've found more useful to me than anything else.

I have a logbook for all my reloading.
I had a logbook of what I did at the range or at home, every time there was something to write, but I never saw the need to look back at it.

I date and save targets with notes, but I've stopped going back to old targets.  I recently threw most of them away.  I found them depressing to look at.  The only targets I pay attention to nowadays, are the ones I just fired at.  I know it was suggested in the forum that I only pay attention to my "good" shots, but even though I was told not to, I do keep trying to figure out what I did wrong for the bad shots, and not repeat it.  Following Jon's advice to someone else, I no longer have one or two holes on their way to outer space.  

What I should do, and now that you've reminded me, maybe I will do, is start a new logbook only on the Nelson, changes and results.  I'd like to make it my main 22, and I can see a lot of good reasons for keeping track of it.  (Other guns, that I just shoot for enjoyment, I'm not all that serious about.). 

Maybe you can suggest what the likely effect might be from switching from the 9# spring to an 8# spring in the Nelson?

........and I see that I maybe should create a new Shot Process for the Nelson.  I try to have one that works for all my guns.  

You're right.  Thanks for the reminder.

Mike, 
I’m guessing that switching to the 8# spring will allow the slide to cycle faster and might help.
To be honest, I’m using the same red dot on mine with the 9# spring and it’s working. I’m new to all this too and learning right along side of you....but may I suggest that getting the magazine to go in without slamming be your next step and a different mag catch might help.
Bob

I will try to do that.

I just found another YouTube video on the Nelson.  Starting 12 minutes in, he starts to have problems, and a little bit later he shows what Larry Nelson explained to him about why they were happening.  He shows this with close-up video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWtFtHaTfz8&t=12s

I got confused when he started tp talk about CCI MiniMags - I didn't thing this kit could shoot them?

On my Springfield, the mag release was always rubbing on the magazines.  I'm certain that when I "slammed" them to get them past that point, the remained stuck in too high a position, which as was noted earlier, pushed the ejector up, and the gun didn't work properly.  Maybe steel magazines won't do that.  I guess I can test this by inserting the magazine all the way in, then pulling it down.  I wish I could try that now.  The Caspian was better, but it's all apart for now.

I need to go back in this thread and find the information about taking the gun apart for cleaning.  I meant to print that, but I forgot.  I know I have to be careful not to lose any parts that want to go flying, so the first time I'll do it inside a turkey cooking baggie.

(I'll be spending the weekend with family, so I won't be responding here until next Monday.  The first part of the video I just linked to is rather repetitive, but the second part shows what Larry was telling the guy about how to prevent the issues he was having.)

Mike,
I have been following this discussion since I have had such good luck with my two Nelson conversion units. They are both on dedicated frames that I built from Caspians. I guess I hit it right on the magazine release because they both run flawlessly on Nelson or GSG magazines with CMP Eley ammo. I only got one spring with my kits, probably an 8# since I told Larry I planned to shoot CCI SV. Initially, I had to have a high velocity round on top of the magazine for reliable function, would have a ftf on first round occasionally with SV all the way. After 5,000 rounds or so, I discontinued this practice and have had no more ftf's. I was always loading my mags to 10 rounds so my theory was on the first round, there was more friction from the loaded magazine than later. Right or not, the trick worked. On the subject of SV vs HV ammo, these are supposed to be OK with a steady diet of HV unlike my 41's and High Standards.
If you are having the slide closed on an empty, it is not cycling far enough to pick up another round. A blowback pistol will not recock the hammer unless the slide moves, it is just not moving far enough for the ejector to kick the empty so it is stuffing it back in the chamber.
A couple more thoughts, Springfields use a little taller ejector that needs to be filed down slightly to clear on the Nelson slide. You might be getting a little drag there.
I am also anal about cleaning the chamber of carbon and wax deposits. I use a felt bore swab soaked with carb cleaner to loosen said deposits then drag a snake through twice.

I got back this afternoon, and decided to start all over again.  I installed the Nelson kit on my Les Baer.  Everything went together easily.  The standard Nelson magazine still pushes up the ejector just a tiny amount, but when I make sure the magazine is down all the way, it feels like there is a small gap between the two.

Regardless of anything I find out tomorrow, I need to learn how to tear down the Nelson for cleaning, without losing any of the parts that you guys warned me about.



Added later - seventeen minutes into this video, the fellow explains how he uses the palm of his right hand to push on the shaft, allowing him the use of all his fingers to manipulate the spring and buffer into position.  Easy Peasy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIpPMFm5ubM

Update......

Lots of stuff up above that I guess I could have avoided, had I known better.

The Nelson kit is now on my Les Baer Premiere II lower.  It fits perfectly, no issues.

The stock Nelson magazine does touch the ejector when inserted, but then the magazine drops down slightly so there is a small gap between the magazine and ejector.  Good.

The standard Nelson magazines slides in and out of the Baer lower effortlessly, and after a few times, it gets easier.  No more need to slam the magazine.

Last night I poured a box of 50 CCI SV rounds on a towel, and moved the around while also covered by the towel, to get rid of most of the wax I think they are coated with.  Those are the rounds I started off with.

I started out with only one round loaded in a magazine.  The very first round got trapped before it could be ejected, but from then on everything was fine.  So, I started loading two rounds, and then five.  No problems.  The gun worked perfectly.  Accuracy wise, I shoot the Nelson about the same as I shoot my Model 41 (both one handed).  I can still shoot the Nelson slightly better two handed.  One handed, my rounds are all "in the black" of a M8 target at 25 yards.  Two handed the group is the size of the 10 ring.  


Not sure what else to say.  I'll copy the new photo below (and I also replaced my original photo with the latest).

If I clean my CCI ammo before shooting, the reliability is fine.  The kit is easy to shoot.  It's still a 4+ pound trigger, so the Model 41 has an advantage, but the 1911 form factor fits ME better.  I like the sight, but maybe I'll try the Aimpoint 9000sc next week to see if I can handle the weight.

Most importantly, Jim's no longer going groan when looking at the hammer.      :-)

(I did try the standard CCI loads later in the day, un-cleaned; they felt "greasy" in my hands, and the second round in a magazine never loaded into the gun.  I had to remove the mag, pull the slide back, release the slide, and then fire.  Since it was then the "first" round in that magazine, it loaded...   but the next round didn't.  Maybe there's a fix for this, or maybe it's just the 90 degree weather.......)

New photo:

Try the new CCI. No waxy residue.

Jim, I tried to find it, but no luck.  Do you have a link?

I did find a page with a different coating, but they weren't talking about the cartridge.
I found another page suggesting that my rounds are defective, and I should call CCI.

In the meantime, I'll be happy to use a towel if it prevents my issues.

I'll send you my Geco, for waxing....

https://www.cci-ammunition.com/whatsnew/newproducts.aspx

Interesting - a little on the slow side......  Has anyone here tried it?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020878729/cci-quiet-semi-auto-ammunition-22-long-rifle-subsonic-45-grain-lead-round-nose




As to waxing your Geco, I dunno......
Pretty slippery slimy, and shiny already I think.....



Meanwhile, back to reality.  

• This thread wouldn't be very long at all, had I just mounted the Nelson on my Baer originally.  
  
• I have two metal magazines arriving later this week.  I'll test those on my other 1911's.
  
• The Nelson may or may not eventually work on the Springfield, but if it works on the Baer, I think it ought to work on my Caspian without too much effort.
  
• I also plan to call Larry and ask about the Nelson that shot the "shotgun effect", which was returned to them.  Very curious as to what was wrong with it.
  

Betting slide stop wasn’t properly installed

When the fellow with the problem called Larry, who asked his son (Kevin?) about it, Kevin said there was a problem (or so I'm told).  This person knows/knew more about these things than I do - we had a long discussion on the phone.  

If Kevin found the problem, they've probably made any changes needed so nobody else has that issue.  I'm very curious what was wrong.  One of my "problems" is I'm too stubborn to give up on anything that "should" work until it does.  This person just returned the kit, having spent money on other related things, and bought the Marvel kit which worked for him.  It wasn't the barrel, as they had already replaced the barrel (I think).  

As I see it, if for some reason the locking "pin" that goes through the spring, wasn't locking things up correctly, the results would have been the "shotgun pattern" which was happening.  The only way I can envision this, is the threads on that screw were damaged, so when the screw "tightened", it wasn't locking the parts together.  Anyway, that's my guess.

No Mike, it’s a 2 piece slide stop pin. If it’s not centered and pressed in before tightening all manner of problems result.

Jim, I'm confused.  When he sent the kit back to Nelson, there was no gun.  If Larry's son found a problem, you're thinking that the slide stop or pin might have been the cause?  

If the owner had done what you suggested, and tightened the central shaft before installing the two-piece slide stop, yep, I understand.  The instructions were pretty clear on what to do, in what order.  ......but even if that's what the guy did, when he sent it back to Nelson, Larry's son had apparently found a problem with the parts (I think).  


While we're discussing this, there should be a supplement added to the instructions, on how to re-install the shaft, spring, and buffer.  The video I posted makes it clear how to do it without too much effort.  Had I not seen that video, it would have taken me forever to figure it out.  Actually, the video part didn't help me, it was the instruction (in the video) to use my right palm to be pushing on the shaft, as I used all my fingers to slowly move the spring over the shaft.  Without using my palm that way, I don't know how I'd ever have gotten it re-assembled......

Rather confused.

Went to the range to try rounds with and without the wax being removed.  Regardless of which I loaded with, the "first" round always fired, and the following round stayed in the magazine.

So, remove mag, cock hammer, lock slide back, replace magazine.

Again, the top round fired, and the next stayed in the magazine.

It was very consistent about this.


Dave Salyer wants me to replace the recoil spring with the 8# spring; will do that today, and maybe try again tomorrow.  In the meantime, I hope to talk to Larry at Nelson's.  I also have two metal magazines on the way - maybe that will make a difference.