32ACP - Does bullet weight matter?

I started reloading 32ACP last year using my Dillon XL650 and a variety of dies. PhotoEscape PTU + bracket and all the little extras now readily available for this press. I bought fresh Starline brass to use with Hornady XTP's for match ammo, but have generally used once or more fired Fiocchi or PMC brass for practise ammo. My habit is to vibro used brass, then decap & prime with CCI SPP's manually. So far I've only been using VV N310 powder.

I heard that T&B (made in Oregon - well done Travis - Yay!) LSWC bullets are a good bet for practise and short line so I ordered a box of his Hi-Tec coated 64 grain 0.314" LSWC to try. Loaded a bunch over 1.6gr of N310 with a light taper crimp ~0.330" and ~COAL 0.835. They functioned OK in my HP32, but I never felt that I was getting really consistent performance. I did not chrono or do any bench rest group tests at that time - too busy shooting!

Towards the end of the Outdoor season it was strongly suggested to me that I should stop messing with 32ACP for CF and just use my 45 wad gun for both CF/45. I followed that advice and concentrated on just two guns, then the Indoor season began and it was just 22 only anyway. Then I went away to hibernate.

When I got back in the spring (far earlier in the year than usual cause I was running away from the Covid-19 in Asia) it was still Indoor season - 22 only. Then a couple of weeks ago I resumed practising with 32 & 45. My 32 cards were horrible, uncalled flyers all over the place - like a shotgun pattern - not good. I shot a couple of cards with factory JHP ammo and the groups came back pretty much to normal. Hmmm.......

During the winter I saw some (nominally) 60 grain T&B 0.314" LSWC bullets on this forum at a good price. I bought the box of 3,000. They are actually plain LSWC with the blue lube in a single groove. I loaded a bunch of those to the same recipe as before and shot some - horrible flyers again? These bullets do look a little "rougher" than the Hi-Tec coated current production, but still quite decent. I got to thinking about weight variations. Used my little portable digital scale which has a definition of 0.2 grains and weighed a good sized sample.

The vast bulk of the bullets were all within 0.6 grains (but that is still 1% of total weight), but there were plenty of extremely light bullets well below 61 grains. Just a few over 62.4 grains. (FYI. 61.2 means anything at 61.2 or less. 62.4 means anything 62.4 or more).

I only had a small number of the Hi Tec bullets remaining. I weighed those this evening. They are rather similar, but still a few outliers, one or two extremely light. Very few heavies.

A few days ago I selected weight categorised bullets and loaded a couple of batches, then took them for chrono testing. I shot them in my HP32ACP across a Caldwell chrono positioned so that I could shoot my normal NRA 50' targets on my home range at 45'. These were all shot as normal 5 shot SF strings Bullseye style. The blank cells are when the chrono reported an ERROR result.

As you can see there is a significant difference in velocity between the 61.4gr ammo and the 62.0g ammo. These weights were at the principal ends of the main bulk of the bullets weighed, but there were lots of bullets which were "outliers" well beyond these weights. Obviously they would most likely display more extreme high/low velocities. I have not included the photos of the targets because I do not think that they are factually relevant - I'm not consistent enough and just introduce too many other variables. But I will say that I got fewer uncalled fliers with these batches of ammo.

Now I know that these are very small samples - probably not technically statistically significant - blah, blah, blah! But, it seems to me that this might be one significant factor affecting why I'm not achieving consistent results during my 32ACP practise.

Let me also be clear - I am not criticising T&B Bullets! They are quite economical, well made and readily available - all good - very glad to have them on the market. But, from now on I'm intending to sort these bullets by weight into 0.2 grain groups and then load batches by weight group. Just trying to eliminate a variable that is easily within my control. It will be interesting to see whether I do see a significant improvement in scores and a reduction in the number of un-called flyers during future sessions.

Me and a buddy have been talking about these little lead devils and came to the same conclusion as you.  With such small tolerance a 1/10th of a grain can make a difference.  Powder and bullet weight.  We plan on doing some swaging and maybe try bumping the T&B bullets to make them more consistent.  I cast and can attest to hidden voids in the finished product.  Getting some dies made is going to be the first hoop to jump thru.  Good thing my friend has friends who are machinists.  

As usual, excellent data provided.  I find my accuracy with the .32 to be on par with yours and hope the weather allows for some outdoor shooting soon.

I have to say those little lead buggers are zipping along quite quick for sure.  I have not been able to chrono my loads yet so I was shocked when I saw your speeds.  I wonder if that’s another area that needs looking in too?

Maybe also explore .313 diameter as well.  I have to think with the barrels having that .312 choke at the muzzle might have some play in this.  Again all speculation right now

Your speed numbers are way to fast! Slow them down to around 750- 800

Yes, no doubt you are right. I had not put these over the Chrono previously. I was also surprised by such high velocity. I intend to work it down when I resume 32 loading in a week or two. Thanks.

Roy,
From my experience with culling 45 and 38 Special WC bullets, OD and quality of the bullet's base is extremely important for consistency of ammo and its accuracy.  Initially I was using Lee sizing dies to true up bullets, but it was too slow.  I then bought old Lubrisizer ( like this one - https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-STAR-MACHINE-WORKS-MAGMA-LUBE-SIZER-BULLET-452-DIE-EXCELLENT-CONDITION/164116012913?hash=item2636139f71:g:s84AAOSwBBVeZTkS ), and then ordered custom sizing dies from Magma Engineering.  Customization consists of having dies with no holes for lubing, as I use only coated bullets (and I just got a good news - my lead level in blood is 20% down in a year!!!).  Also sizing surface is a little bit longer in comparison with standard dies.  One more detail - I'm truing up bullets by pushing on surface opposite to the one that goes into case, i.e. I'm pushing on the nose of the bullet when I size Brazos 160gr SWC.  I then visually inspect and sort bullets based on the conditions of the base.

That is my workflow pertaining to preping bullets.
AP

Hey guys, just as an aside, 0.6gr difference is 1% of 60gr, not 10%. (Easy mistake to make.)

Whoops!
Yes, Dr. Don, you are quite correct. It was pretty late last night when I typed up the post. Sorry.

Greetings,

Welcome to the world of commercial cast bullets.

If you want "match grade" cast bullets, you need to cast your own.

Cheers,

Dave

I have been a big fan of the T&b bullets. I like the old 60gr, but the coated 64 have proven more accurate for me. At Travis' recommendation I bumped my load upto 1.8 for the coated bullets. Made a huge difference. I am point for point with my SP and HP using the 64gr with 1.8 gr.

Jwhelan939 wrote:I have been a big fan of the T&b bullets. I like the old 60gr, but the coated 64 have proven more accurate for me. At Travis' recommendation I bumped my load upto 1.8 for the coated bullets. Made a huge difference. I am point for point with my SP and HP using the 64gr with 1.8 gr.

Greetings,

1.8 of what powder?

I would very much like to see some 10 shot 50 yard groups fired with this load.

Cheers,

Dave

1.8 of what powder?

I would very much like to see some 10 shot 50 yard groups fired with this load.

Cheers,

Dave

1.8 N310 is what I use for 32. I do have a fairly elaborate loading process for the 32 though. 

I don't keep my targets, but next time I get to shoot I'll grab some pics. My last match I had an 822 with the 32 and an 836 with the 22. Any deficiency definitely aren't the fault of the gun nor the ammo, they are all me. lol.

Dave,

I plan to do some groups fired off a rest at 25/50 yards as soon as I can get up to Springfield (and assuming that the weather is decent). I will try with both types of LSWC over VV N310 1.8/1.6/1.4. Will post the results in due course. Also want to test the Hornady XTP 100/85/60 bullets over similar powder.

I'm envious of Jwhelan939 - I really struggle with my HP32ACP even with factory ammo. My recent practise sessions yielded these scores - I shoot better with the 45 than my 32. It has been very cold and windy here on the coast this past couple of weeks - I'll use that as an excuse for below par scores!
       




Date      22   CF   45 AGG  %  Notes

03-Mar-20	861	841	858	2560	94.81	HP32 for CF
04-Mar-20	862	848	852	2562	94.89	SARO for CF
05-Mar-20	873	851	851	2575	95.37	SARO for CF
08-Mar-20	860	816	844	2520	93.33	HP32 for CF
10-Mar-20	876	823	852	2551	94.48	HP32 for CF
11-Mar-20	876	837	860	2573	95.30	HP32 for CF

Jwhelan939 wrote:

1.8 of what powder?

I would very much like to see some 10 shot 50 yard groups fired with this load.

Cheers,

Dave

1.8 N310 is what I use for 32. I do have a fairly elaborate loading process for the 32 though. 

I don't keep my targets, but next time I get to shoot I'll grab some pics. My last match I had an 822 with the 32 and an 836 with the 22. Any deficiency definitely aren't the fault of the gun nor the ammo, they are all me. lol.

Would love to hear about your elaborate process.  I load on a 650 and seems to be working fine so far

Would love to hear about your elaborate process.  I load on a 650 and seems to be working fine so far

Maybe elaborate is the wrong word, but hopefully it doesn't disappoint!

I don't use brand new brass in competition. I sort of use the first shot to form fire the brass. Always Starline. 

Deprime/sonic clean/dry

I use a 650 as well. I do 2 passes. 

Die head 1
Size with lee oversized die I special ordered from lee
Expand with noe .311
Expand with noe .313
Expand with noe .314

2nd pass...
Powder with Arredondo powder bar
Hornady seating oal .864
Redding tc to .328


Seems to work for me?

I like the sizing with lee custom die! Then expanding with noe. What size Lee did you end up with. I use Hornady to size and it sizes a bit too much I think. May send you a pm later today. Thanks

The lee is a .332. Pm me anytime!

Jwhelan939 wrote:The lee is a .332. Pm me anytime!

Thank you sir.
Pm on the way

I unintentionally produced a graphic illustration of just how bad my 32ACP LSWC ammo is today in the CF stage of my typical practise 2,700. Shot on 50' NRA targets at 45'. I used some XTP85 reloads to shoot the three SF cards across the top - acceptable results. Then completed the NMC down the right side with weight selected 60 gr LSWC over 1.8 N310. Very bad. Jumped across to the left side using the same ammo for the TF/RF - also very bad. Then decided to try some Fiocchi factory 62JHP to finish the final TF/RF. All TF/RF strings fired inside the time limit - just!

I'm not a High Master and so, yes, some of the flyers are certainly down to me. I was paying close attention and think that I have marked all of the ones I noted to be "my" flyers. But the difference in group size in the TF/RF cards between the LSWC reloads and factory JHP is just ridiculous. I guess that I know which ammo to use at the first outdoor match!

Just to put this 900 into perspective, I shot an 870 with the 22 and an 857 with the 45. The weather was just miserably cold and wet, but at least that meant no other hardy souls made it to the range so I was effectively isolating myself. My trusty Mr. Buddy propane heater kept me from freezing!

I was intending to load up several weight selected batches of the old 60gr LSWC with a variety of powder and take them to group test on my next visit to a 25 yard range. This 900 has changed my mind - waste of time. I may load some of the Hi-tec 62gr LSWC and test those, but I think that the old 60gr bullets will be going to a pal who melts and casts.

I intend to do one or two more practise 2700's this week before the forthcoming match and will just use all factory 32ACP JHP ammo. If I can comfortably get higher scores than the 45 then I will use it for the match, otherwise I will just use my trusty Roddy tuned SARO 45 for both 45 and CF.

There was a reason I sold all those T&B bullets

I don’t understand why some are having great luck with the T&B bullets and some not so much.  I guess it is gun particular.  I’m waiting to get outdoors where it really counts at 25 and 50 yards

Part of me thinks it’s reloading process etc.

lablover wrote:I don’t understand why some are having great luck with the T&B bullets and some not so much.  I guess it is gun particular.  I’m waiting to get outdoors where it really counts at 25 and 50 yards

Part of me thinks it’s reloading process etc.

Greetings,

I am still waiting to see 10 shot groups at 50 yards with ANY cast bullet.

Cheers,

Dave

fc60 wrote:

I am still waiting to see 10 shot groups at 50 yards with ANY cast bullet.

Cheers,

Dave

Hi Dave,
Hoover here!..............50yd targets. I too am wondering the same, so I thought I'd add these not so good ones.

So, Dr. Don reminded me about his thread from 2018, here:-

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t10849-32-acp-bullet-test-64gr-coated-swc?highlight=64gr+T+B

I knew that I'd read all about T&B bullets on this forum, now I know where. This, and a couple of subsequent related threads led me to try the T&B Hi-tec coated bullets, which seem to have reasonable potential for "short line", but I now realise that the earlier "60gr LSWC" uncoated bullets are not so useful. Hence why I was able to buy 3,000 of them "cheap" and have wasted a lot of time and frustration trying to make them work. Ho hum.

My current conclusion, and I guess that of several others based on their "been there - done that" comments, is that the only really reliable source of accurate long/short line bullets is Hornady XTP's, even though they are rather expensive. Ho hum, again!