45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024

Hello,

Next year, I'm planning on shooting 45ACP 230 gr ball ammo in CMP EIC matches. I'm well aware that this is not necessary. Additionally, I'm not interested in the "I did this (leg out) when it was harder," discussion, as that is not fruitful.

What I *am* interested in, is the current consensus/fact/opinion on two things:

1) What really counts as "ball ammo" velocity that would have been issued on the line?
2) What sort of velocity is necessary for accuracy at 50 yards?

I've read this thread with data provided by Jack H: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1396-hardball-loads#6974

I've also caught basically the same information/post, though with a little more information/context from the link http://barilin.com/advice/hardball.html using the Wayback machine. I've researched other threads here that may have insight (but sadly cannot find a single test target to look at), but have mostly found discordant views.

It does seem clear that velocity has increased in commercially made 45ACP ball ammo from original introduction of the cartridge (though perhaps that is an artifact of improved chronographs). It also seems to be the case that some of the last stuff issued on the line, TZZ (or IMI, if you prefer) was known to be particularly hot. Of course, lot to lot variance can tell some of the story on perception of how hot some ammo was. So, too, can velocity measurements, as Jack H was kind enough to share, and Julian Hatcher was nice enough to write down (he said 820 fps).

So, let's hear it- what do you know about 45ACP ball ammo velocity that you'd like to share? I'm listening.


Thanks,
Chase

My piddly points all came several years ago with Winchester White Box 230gr @ 835 fps. I call this "hardball" but I have not shot issued military ball for comparison. My understanding at the time was White Box duplicated the mil-issue stuff.

Zero in on this pix and see the old velocity of 100+ years ago

This is from 1962 Western Cartridge Company.

230 Ball was 850 nominal fps.  

Note they had a version of a H&G 68 lead bullet load at775.  It shot very well even in an old beater of a 1911 I once had.

If I recall correctly I shot a lot of decent (low 90s) hardball slow fires with a gun that came with a 2.6" test target shooting 230 grain ball reloads tamed down to 750 FPS. I was shooting a lot of ball at the time and it seemed to help keep my shoulder from aching as much after a full 2700. Well, the CF and 45 parts. You know what I mean. My testing was all at the range, didn't ransom anything at the time, but it seemed like anything slower than that and groups started to really open up. The gun was pretty poorly fit though.

I respect the challenge, sounds fun. I was thinking about doing the same thing with my old Remington Rand national match.

Chase,
On opposite side of spectrum I’ve been shooting 3.8 & 4.0 BE with 230 jrn for service pistol 900. I’ve been shooting 840+ average for several years. If you ever barrel test that load I’d be interested to know how it grouped.
Jon

Ahh now I see where this is going, Chase. Don’t forget the little people when you leg out. Lol

Can’t vouch for accuracy but 4.7 gr WST got about 750-775 out of a Colt. I think a bump to 4.9 would get you well over 800. But it’ll be a pretty (bleeeeeeep!) stout load. Lol

Thanks everyone for the photos- a very interesting tale from the pictures alone!

Also, thanks everyone who has helped me get the materials together to be able to attempt this. This challenge will require a fair amount of practice on my part, but I'm up for the attempt. I started shooting and legged out under the "any weight jacketed ammo" rules, so I missed out on the hardball EIC matches. While I still can see my irons fairly well, I'd like to be able to say I did something the old way. Not for any sort of official recognition, but just to play a game with wood shafted golf clubs vs. steel shafted golf clubs vs. carbon fiber shafted golf clubs type thing. Use the equipment of the day, and work at the game from that way to see how it helps to inform the regular/current day to day shooting. That's the goal anyway.

Naturally, I've got to reload to do this, which is why I'm curious about the velocity. I want to get close to whatever it is that was used to keep my attempt "period correct," but also to try and limit components needed for load development. I'm going to try Jack H's load, JIMPGOVs load, and the classic load with BE.

I'm also going to try W231 and BE86. I like the feeling of BE86 under a 185 JHP- so maybe will get lucky with it in this.

Really, it's whatever the target says that is what I'll settle on, but getting "period correct" and limiting testing is my thinking here.

Appreciate the replies!

-Chase

Just dug this out.

Date us 1963.

Found this article from Handloader 2017, which had some history included: https://www.handloadermagazine.com/loading-the-45-acp-pet-loads

Also, this table lists factory velocity results vs actual results from the same article:

 
Thanks,
Chase

A high master that shoots here once told me "you want it to be a little snappy". What he meant by that he wasn't specific. I would guess the velocity should be in the range of 900 to maybe 1000 fps. One of the shooters here if I remember right said his loads were 4.5 grains of bullseye behind 230 bullet. This seems extreme but who knows.If your arm can hold up to this it might work!

4.5 BE is a decent standard load, it’s not 900-1000 though.

bruce martindale wrote:4.5 BE is a decent standard load, it’s not 900-1000 though.

Bruce,

4.5gr of BE is my load for the Zero 185gr.JHP bullet.  The 230gr. FMJ bullets were loaded with 5.0gr of BE to
get as close as possible to the 820 fps achieved in the Federal Match While Box used for years by the military
and at Camp Perry.

Mike

Enjoy your tennis elbow.

Sounds like a worthy venture but not a rabbit hole I'm willing to go down.  After all these years, my elbow is finally healed and at the age of 81, don't want to antagonize it.  One thing I remember from those days in my RR testing, Sierra #8815 230 gr bullets beat the others hands down.
Phil

Hello Chase

I will bring you a box of ammo from the last lot of 230gr Hardball Match that I have see come through military channels.  You can just chronograph it.  It is the actual Lake City stuff.  I can't remember but I was thinking it was 2015ish time frame.  I will be at the GA State match and can bring it to you there.

mprince wrote:Hello Chase

I will bring you a box of ammo from the last lot of 230gr Hardball Match that I have see come through military channels.  You can just chronograph it.  It is the actual Lake City stuff.  I can't remember but I was thinking it was 2015ish time frame.  I will be at the GA State match and can bring it to you there.

mprince,

Thank you! Will run it through the barrel tester and chrono, can't wait to see the results!

See you in a few weeks,
Chase

Merick wrote:Enjoy your tennis elbow.

This is probably a good time to discuss what is needed to successfully shoot ball ammo and avoid injury. This also works for regular ammo, too. 

Generally speaking:

1) You need to do some physical conditioning. If you aren't willing to put in a little work in your arms and shoulders (the shoulder strength/conditioning being the main culprit for shooters/tennis/golfers elbow) 3 days a week, then you probably should not attempt this particular challenge. You don't have to do anything crazy, and it need not take more than 20 minutes a day.

2) If you have had any sort of hand/arm/shoulder injuries, you will need to be extra careful. Speak with your doctor to see what is actually possible for you and your situation. In my particular case, I've had a TFCC tear repaired in my shooting hand (years ago), and so I'm watching carefully for any signs of re-injury, which is possible doing what I'm doing.

In short, if shooting hurts, you either aren't conditioned for what you are doing, or you have a physical blocker that induces pain. It's that simple.

3) You will have to master the art of the grip. Many suggest that you need to make the frame drip oil by your strength. I do not, and never did, subscribe to this view. I believe what I heard in a class lead by M. Standard and J. Gregoire earlier this year, which basically was captured from their comment, which I am paraphrasing, that, "isn't it is amazing how loose your grip can feel and yet you are still in control of the firearm and you are able to execute your trigger press without inducing error?" Think about that for a second. Because of recoil or sound anxiety, we naturally want to hold on as tightly as possible or close our eyes at noise; it is perfectly natural to tense up at a loud sound or quick movement. Unlearning these things is key to mastering your grip.

4) As a function of mastering your grip, you need to be aware that there are nerves that run throughout your hand that can be impacted from shooting heavy loads. I'm specifically thinking about the bundle at the base of thumb, so the median nerve. If you are like me and rest your thumb on the 1911 safety because doing so keeps the pistol centered in your hand, you may find pain at the base of your thumb. If so, adjust your thumb position to help protect your nerve by tucking it down with your fingers.

5) Equipment has to be ready. If you aren't springing your gun correctly, both recoil and mainspring, you are in for more work than you need, and can batter your pistol. Start with 16lb recoil spring, 23lb main spring. Go up to 18 lb recoil spring, see if you are getting dipping on your front end. If not, try a 20 lb recoil spring.

Remember, shortening a spring generally means you are increasing its power, not lowering it. Don't clip springs.

6) Also, remember other mechanical issues to consider. Firing pin stop, hard fit barrels. Talk to your gunsmith and make sure you've got everything sorted. Let your gun do some of your work.

7) Last, if you wish to take on such a challenge, prepare properly: start about a year from when you'd like to be working towards this endeavor and move steadily and slowly.

Best,
Chase

Good Afternoon,

A new data point: 

A box of WMA 15 Match was gifted to me. I shot it this morning at 50 yards. Average velocity was 830 FPS (n=20).

A test target fired from the barrel tester using the Kart barrel from the ball gun. The below is a 10 shot group.


This probably was the very last WW match 230 ball ammo made in any sizeable quantity.

Going to work on powder selection to match this velocity.

I also shot some WWB from a few years ago. It really made a nice shotgun like pattern. It was also very hot, at 893 FPS.

Thanks,
Chase

I have NM 1968? and brown box Winchester if you want to shoot what they did.

I am loading out of a can of Hercules Bullseye, So I found some load data from 1986{hercules} and it says a 230 FMC 5 grns 905 fps

I've still got this case of ball, don't know what I'm going to do with it.
Phil

Cmysix wrote:I am loading out of a can of Hercules Bullseye, So I found some load data from 1986{hercules} and it says a 230 FMC 5 grns 905 fps

After I was no longer able to find and buy DOD White Box ammo, I began loading Winchester 230gr FMJ over 5.0gr of Bullseye in an effort to replicate the 820 fps of White Box.  I never did chrono those loads but relied on info I was given. 
If you have access to a chronograph, I would try to get as close as possible to the 820fps that Winchester found to be the "sweet spot" for their projectiles.

Mike

CAUTION,!!  This is for HERCULES powders only….  It dates from 1987 when Hercules still had the Kenvil NJ plant.  By 1994 they were making powders in another facility and the formulations were different, and they were now “Alliant”.  So if you’re loading “HERCULES” powder you can use this data as a guide

There are two loads for a 230 RN…
4.0 BE behind a 230 RN Lead bullet giving 810fps, and
5.0 BE behind a 230 FMJ giving 910 fps.  

If you’re loading FMJ I think you’ll find that 4.3-4.5 will be close to ideal, but as always YMMV.  If I recall, Sierras 230 FMJ was the most accurate, but was much more costly.