So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

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So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Slartybartfast on Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:38 am

Here's today's go at poking the hornet's nest with a stick:

Seeing as there's no power factor requirement involved, what's the challenge of firing a custom powder puff load of 45 ACP over any other calibre with a similar power factor?

I've often read people claiming that shooting another calibre other than 45 for the CF portion means you don't have time to master the 45. But the only thing to master is the extra firearm. No?

All I'm seeing is the advantage of an extra .1 inch diameter over 9mm.

Besides tradition then, why bother shooting 45 ACP? If there's not going to be a power factor forcing the use of 45 ACP or 9mm +P loads, why not allow competitors to shoot .22, and 9mm twice for a 2700? Or 10mm (only at a .05 inch diameter disadvantage, but power seems higher)?

Being in Canada, the questions are kind of moot. Seems here competition is 1800's. .22 and a CF.
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by dronning on Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:53 pm

2.5lb trigger for CF (non-45acp) verses 3.5lb trigger required for 45.  For shooters that haven't "Mastered" trigger control it does make a difference.  Recoil management is another challenge for some people and yes even a soft shooting 45 can't compare with a soft shooting 38.  Once you hit Master I believe the benefit of small calibers for CF is diminished and if you look at the HM scores they often beat their 22 scores with their 45's.  

If you never learn to shoot the 45 you will never make Master.
- Dave
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by james r chapman on Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:15 pm

CMP version of "power factor" was .45 ACP 230 factory ball....
now it's what dronning said......
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:21 pm

I've known some really good 22 & 32 shooters over the years that never mastered the 45. They won't win the big matches because the 45 is their downfall. The 45 is a beast all its own. Steve Reiter & Mel Makin were both averaging in the 2660's and shot .38 spl 1911's to see if they could raise their scores. They both had a drop in averages. The bigger bullet diameter does make a difference. That's why the best shooters typically shoot 45 for both CF & 45 aggregate.
Jon
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Chris Miceli on Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:48 pm

Why do you want to change the sport ? It’s a 22,cf,and 45 match. If you only want to participate up to the CF part of them match you are more then willing to. A few shooters around me can’t shoot the 45 any more so they leave after centerfire.  Also shooting the 45 is fun. Ice you get a decent handle on it recoil isn’t that big of a deal. You’ll actually enjoy it I know I do
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by james r chapman on Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:07 pm

And, the NRA now has the .22 2700
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Allen Barnett on Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:29 pm

Well said guys.  I tried to write a response but everything I said came out wrong so I gave up.  As stated from the above answers, "If you can't master the 45, you won't be among the best".  I haven't mastered the 45 and accept the fact that I probably won't now at my age.

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by scheibenpistole on Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:32 pm

The OP has a legitimate point. Elsewhere, Chris asks "Why do you want to change the sport?"
The fact is, the current rules set up for the 45 stage already changed the sport!
Once they dropped the hardball requirement, allowed wadcutters, reduced trigger weights, and allowed optical sights the original intent of the stage was destroyed.
The 1911 is no longer the U.S. Military standard issue pistol.
Maybe the CF stage should be called "any centerfire" and the 45 stage should be called "service pistol", where we follow something akin to the CMP rules.

Best Regards,
Jim
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Chris Miceli on Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:48 pm

OcY
scheibenpistole wrote:The OP has a legitimate point.  Elsewhere, Chris asks "Why do you want to change the sport?"
The fact is, the current rules set up for the 45 stage already changed the sport!
Once they dropped the hardball requirement, allowed wadcutters, reduced trigger weights,  and allowed optical sights the original intent of the stage was destroyed.
The 1911 is no longer the U.S. Military standard issue pistol.
Maybe the CF stage should be called "any centerfire" and the 45 stage should be called "service pistol", where we follow something akin to the CMP rules.

Best Regards,
Jim
Jim,

I haven’t been around since the beginning of bullseye. Did they require 230 ball in nra ? I’d like to see a rule book for that? I would imagine not since 45 revolvers were commonly used. Also can you provide me any copies of rules that speficily disallowed for optics or scopes in the nra matches ?
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by john bickar on Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:09 pm

There's a pic floating around of (I think) Don Hamilton's scorebook for an entire year sometime in the late 1960s. It had a lot of 2650+ scores, but the thing that struck me most were the .45 scores: mid-to-high 880s, and some in the 890s.

I played around for a while - longer than I should have - with the idea that if I could bust 890s with .22 and .32, and then limp home in the 870s with the .45, I could break 2650. This is coming from an "international shooter" who has tiny teenage girl hands.

A few other things aligned for me around that time as well, but that scorebook pic of those big .45 scores from the 1960s reset my mental calibration, and it was a big part of getting me over the hump of 2650 and to 2660.

When I shot 2660 (my PB), I went 885-887-888, shooting .45 for the CF and .45 match. In my head I was like, "this is normal. This is what good shooters do. I'm a good shooter."

It's a good idea to learn to shoot the .45 well. It's what good shooters do.
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A page from Bonnie Harmons scorebook

Post by Greg Walloch on Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:01 pm



Last edited by Greg Walloch on Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Mistake)

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Greg Walloch on Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:05 pm

This above post is a page from Bonnie Harmon’s scorebook.  Sean Foote was gracious enough to let me take photos of the entire book.  John Bickar has it right.  When the guys who shoot 2650 plus start talking, I get quiet and start listening.

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by john bickar on Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:53 pm

Look at that F*cking X-count. I have a post that may need updating.
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Greg Walloch on Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:02 pm

Pretty amazing scores.  Sean wouldn’t let go of the scorebook or Bonnie’s gunbox.  I can’t blame him.  Cool piece of history.

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by john bickar on Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:21 pm

Bonnie's a good guy, I've known him for a long time. One of those guys who always made you feel like you were important, even if you were a nobody kid from Northeastern Ohio. When someone like that walks up to you and knows your name and shakes your hand, you stand a little bit taller.

He had retired in Ohio last I knew, but that was probably 15 years ago, maybe more.
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by 243winxb on Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:01 am

The bigger 45  hole made on the target, may cut the next higher point scoring ring.  The 9 would not.  

In Bench Rest rifle Hunter, for score, they use a 30 caliber for the same reason.  Mostly beats the 6mm.
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by james r chapman on Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:35 am

I haven't shot that many X's in my Bullseye lifetime!
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by lyman1903 on Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:57 am

243winxb wrote:The bigger 45  hole made on the target, may cut the next higher point scoring ring.  The 9 would not.  

In Bench Rest rifle Hunter, for score, they use a 30 caliber for the same reason.  Mostly beats the 6mm.

when I was starting out in High Power Rifle, (Service Rifle) the M1 and M14(M1A) guys would say that about the .30 cal vs 556

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Allen Barnett on Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:45 am

Reference Chris Miceli's post NRA never did require 45 ACP 230 grain hardball.  The "gold standard" used to be Federal 185 grain jacketed SWC.  The 230 grain hardball was required only when you fired the CMP EIC leg matches using the service pistol.  When they added the M9  to the service pistol eligibilty those 9mm guys were required to fire the standard 9mm hardball round.  Once upon a time when you fired the EIC leg match you were issued your ammunition and could not use your own.  When the CMP opened up the EIC matches to other pistols than the 1911 Colt and the M9 Beretta that is when things really got mucked up.  Now it is pretty much "run what you brung".  Without the ability to shoot the 45 or 9mm with hardball and iron sights you could never become a distingush pistol shooter.  Becoming distingushed is where the emphasis to shoot the 45 comes from in my opinion.

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Wobbley on Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:06 pm

The “gold standard” way back when 1960s was either the Remington Targetmaster 185 SWC or the Western Super Match 185 SWC ot 210 LSWC.  Federal was relatively new into pistol ammo in the 1960s.
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Chris Miceli on Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:54 pm

Allen Barnett wrote:Reference Chris Miceli's post NRA never did require 45 ACP 230 grain hardball.  The "gold standard" used to be Federal 185 grain jacketed SWC.  The 230 grain hardball was required only when you fired the CMP EIC leg matches using the service pistol.  When they added the M9  to the service pistol eligibilty those 9mm guys were required to fire the standard 9mm hardball round.  Once upon a time when you fired the EIC leg match you were issued your ammunition and could not use your own.  When the CMP opened up the EIC matches to other pistols than the 1911 Colt and the M9 Beretta that is when things really got mucked up.  Now it is pretty much "run what you brung".  Without the ability to shoot the 45 or 9mm with hardball and iron sights you could never become a distingush pistol shooter.  Becoming distingushed is where the emphasis to shoot the 45 comes from in my opinion.
Allen, what I figured. I know the Cmp changes it rules but Jim expressed the rules changed in the 45 match.

As for what is required to be distinguished it’s still and iron sight pistol, you are more then welcome to shoot hardball. If ever one was shooting hardball then everyone shoots custom load 185s or 9mm ammo( since the m9) is it any easier to go distinguished? I would say no. The playing field is still the same best shooters.
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by CR10X on Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:58 am

It's still surprising how many shooters don't know the difference between CMP / EIC matches and NRA Precision Pistol (bullseye) matches.

As for the original poster, why don't you try it and then see if it makes a difference or not?   Take the .45 as low as you can get the gun to function (I see a lot of single shot, semi-automatics on the line anyway), same as with centerfire .32 or whatever.  The NRA doesn't care what the power factor is.  The thing is, there is nothing stopping anyone from shooting as "whimpy" a load as you want to in .45, centerfire or whatever 40 gr. .22 you can get to function.  But the caliber tends to set a level for each match in some form or other.   Heck, why even shoot one handed anymore since we don't have to hold the horse's reins to keep it from running away?   Because that's the current conditions of the sport.  If you want something different, there are other shooting sports where you can shoot with 2 hand, laying down, or just .22 for Olympic.   

But try it out first, check your scores, and then see if there is any substance to "why bother shooting 45 ACP"?  If scores are better than the .22 scores, then it's probably a match win for your class. If they are worse, then there is probably a reason to keep the .45. 

And a one day, 2700 will tend to separate the players as well, mentally as well as physically.

CR


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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by Ed Hall on Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:01 am

Not to be too nitpicky, but the .45 isn't limited to ACP and the 40gr requirement for .22 ammo has been lifted, although it still says, "lead or other similar soft material."

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by james r chapman on Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:14 am

I think many people migrate to Precision Pistol because it's still one of the toughest, most frustrating shooting sports out there.
Your not rewarded for "nearly good enough" like some.

The 2700 has never been conquered thru better equipment and ammo is available.
Even in PPC, the 1500 ceiling has been reached at least once, and that shooter now shoots Precision Pistol.

If you want participation awards, run n' gun is the new American Way.
If you want constant challenges on many levels, Precision (oh, hell) Bullseye is what you want.

Just MHO
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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

Post by CR10X on Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:55 pm

Ed:

Sorry, forgot about the .22 changes from .22 rimfire; to .40 gr bullet rim fire; and now just to rimfire Long Rifle .22.  Not that I used it, but the option for .22 Short will be missed.   I did use ".45" in my post on purpose as one day I may show up with .45 Schofield wadcutter loads with black powder just for fun.  

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Re: So, What's the Challenge of Shooting 45 ACP?

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