45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024

First topic message reminder :

Hello,

Next year, I'm planning on shooting 45ACP 230 gr ball ammo in CMP EIC matches. I'm well aware that this is not necessary. Additionally, I'm not interested in the "I did this (leg out) when it was harder," discussion, as that is not fruitful.

What I *am* interested in, is the current consensus/fact/opinion on two things:

1) What really counts as "ball ammo" velocity that would have been issued on the line?
2) What sort of velocity is necessary for accuracy at 50 yards?

I've read this thread with data provided by Jack H: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1396-hardball-loads#6974

I've also caught basically the same information/post, though with a little more information/context from the link http://barilin.com/advice/hardball.html using the Wayback machine. I've researched other threads here that may have insight (but sadly cannot find a single test target to look at), but have mostly found discordant views.

It does seem clear that velocity has increased in commercially made 45ACP ball ammo from original introduction of the cartridge (though perhaps that is an artifact of improved chronographs). It also seems to be the case that some of the last stuff issued on the line, TZZ (or IMI, if you prefer) was known to be particularly hot. Of course, lot to lot variance can tell some of the story on perception of how hot some ammo was. So, too, can velocity measurements, as Jack H was kind enough to share, and Julian Hatcher was nice enough to write down (he said 820 fps).

So, let's hear it- what do you know about 45ACP ball ammo velocity that you'd like to share? I'm listening.


Thanks,
Chase

TonyH wrote:

shanneba wrote:For anyone interested in the Federal Gold Medal 185 gr FMJSWC- (GM45B) it looks like Federal actually recently made some.
First time in about 2 years that I have seen it available. $72.99 /50
Maybe some of the ammo sellers will get it soon.

I also noticed Federal introduced Gold Medal 9mm 147 gr and 40 S&W 180 gr.

Only $1.46/shot….now that’s hard ball!

Actually, that isn't hardball!  It's semi-wadcutter and is confusing in a "hardball" thread.

Ed Hall wrote:

TonyH wrote:

shanneba wrote:For anyone interested in the Federal Gold Medal 185 gr FMJSWC- (GM45B) it looks like Federal actually recently made some.
First time in about 2 years that I have seen it available. $72.99 /50
Maybe some of the ammo sellers will get it soon.

I also noticed Federal introduced Gold Medal 9mm 147 gr and 40 S&W 180 gr.

Only $1.46/shot….now that’s hard ball!

Actually, that isn't hardball!  It's semi-wadcutter and is confusing in a "hardball" thread.

Ed, it was a feeble attempt at humor....aimed at the price.

I realized that, but I was also pointing out that it wasn't for ball ammo in a ball thread, which is why I quoted the entire post instead of parts.

The pricing is probably not that far off for SWC Match Federal, taking into account how worthless the dollar has become and the fact that it was already around half that price before the dry spell.  I think Ball ammo has regularly been less expensive, but I really haven't followed the pricing in quite a while.

Ball ammo has been less expensive because they make tons of it….  But I ask if it is worth much at all.  Much of it is like the old military ball.

Wobbley wrote:Ball ammo has been less expensive because they make tons of it….  But I ask if it is worth much at all.  Much of it is like the old military ball.

I agree that there had been huge amounts of BALL ammo made for the military.  I believe every point I earned on my journey to Distinguished was shot using MATCH BALL ammo.  I'm not sure what determines if ammo is classified as BALL other than it being FMJ and possibly that it is acceptable for military use.
Regardless, whether factory-loaded or reloaded premium components do make a difference.  Given the rate of inflation I'm not surprised to see the price of Federal GM45A and B ammo increase from the former $49.95/box to $72.95/box, if you can find it.

Mike

Chase
I think I’d look at different makes of 230 JRN bullets.  I don’t know which brand you chose,  it I know that different makes were better than others.  In my guns, I found Sierra and Hornady outperformed Winchester.  And, in my guns, Federal Red Box 230 outshot Winchester.

As for your published load results, I’m not sure your powder selection is optimal.  With an ES of 110 it indicates that a different powder might be more uniform.   

As for “mbmshooter’s” inquiry about how “BALL” and “MATCH” are designated in the olden days, as I understood it, the “Match” was loaded with selected components by the contract holder for 45 ammo at the time.  They made a special run of brass to add “MATCH” to the headstamp and put them in special boxes after loading.  They had to meet velocity and accuracy limits.

I've got roughly a 'metric s' ton' of 230 Sierra's that I can cheerfully use up at any leg match I might attend. They need to go somewhere... more valuable as 'leg meat' than scrap...

WesG wrote:I've got roughly a 'metric s' ton' of 230 Sierra's that I can cheerfully use up at any leg match I might attend. They need to go somewhere... more valuable  as 'leg meat' than scrap...

Wes,

I've been thinking about what to try next after the self imposed challenge next year, and after chatting with Jon and Jimmy, thought it might be cool to do a review/experimentation on 230 JRN bullets that were loaded to softball or below levels. People probably have closets full of 230 bullets that they don't want to shoot up because they have the good sense to not rattle their own teeth. So, let's find a way to shoot them up that is 1) reasonably accurate for slow speeds and 2) has minimal recoil.

Jon's loads, listed in this thread, were not bad (3.8/4.0 BE) in the slightest. I put them together in a hurry so that we could see an initial test- mixed brass and Montana Gold 230 bullets. Jimmy gave me some 230 Hornady that he loaded up with 4.0 of WST, and they were also OK. I couldn't get the Sierra's to shoot in this particular barrel with BE86 or Titegroup, though they did like another barrel (both Kart). Additionally, work is still ongoing to firm up the mount for the test fixture, so that adds a little uncertainty to what test results have been produced to present, though I'm sure the trends seen are representative of what can be achieved.

I've been told that in the period between when ammo was issued on the line and the move to 185s, some of the military teams were shooting very downloaded ammo. No idea if that's true, so file that one under scuttlebutt.

Anyway, food for thought. Shoot'em if you got'em!

-Chase

Don’t be fooled by statistically insignificant testing….math guys, of which I am not one, will tell you that a number of 10 shot tests are needed to validate the conclusion. I hate wasting a lot of ammo on testing when my improvements come from shooting. Thanks for doing this, but do repeat the original tests that looked so good. Now as o the Atl Arms, no repeat necessary

bruce martindale wrote:Don’t be fooled by statistically insignificant testing….math guys, of which I am not one, will tell you that a number of 10 shot tests are needed to validate the conclusion. I hate wasting a lot of ammo on testing when my improvements come from shooting. Thanks for doing this, but do repeat the original tests that looked so good. Now as o the Atl Arms, no repeat necessary

"In God we trust, all others verify"

With the initial stated goal, the testing being done makes sense. This is especially true as lots of anecdotal evidence has been stated over the years on this subject. Testing like this is not wasting ammo, it is providing a base for future success, it is a vital part of any successful shooting program.

After reading this I have an idea.
Have 5-6 of your friends load 35 rounds of 230 ball at your specified velocity with whatever bullets and powder they have and issue it to you at the EIC matches. Make it more like “the good old days”.

I’ll be the one on the line shooting 5s and 6s with pipsqueak 9mm loads carefully zeroed in my gun.

Rush

Chase

I just loaded up some 230 Cast LRN with some “powder puff” loads for testing.  The powders are 3.5, 4.0 BE and 3.6, 3.8, 4.0 Titegroup.   I’ll certainly share any data generated.  According to a cursory map of the data, it appears that the “magic sauce” to duplicate the impulse of the 200 SWC “bullseye load” is a velocity of 675 fps.  This seems to be attainable with charges of 3.6 to 3.8 grains of TiteGroup, Bullseye, or WST.  My focus for powder is Titegroup because it’s not my main selection for bullseye but it seems suitable.

An update, this was the first time I’ve had to test these “powder puff” loads with 230 Cast LRN.  No velocity, just function but I did shoot them offhand.  3.6 Bullseye, 3.6 Titegroup, and 3.8 Titegroup had 100% function.   The target results are decent, and some most were on call.  Of the three, 3.8 Titegroup might be a bit better but a proper evaluation would be required.  So for those wanting to play with 230 LRN bullets for training and match shooting, try these powder puff loads.

Update:

Fired first service pistol match for 2024 at the Dixie Matches in Jacksonville (why weren't you there?). My first goal has been met: I beat the cut score by a few points, ending up with a 254-1X.  



I was really stoked to get this show on the road, though I had some match nerves big time! Long line target could have been better, and I felt good about timed, but rapid fire wasn't great- I was rushing too much to get the gun back down on target such that I didn't execute my triggering well for one string.

All in all though, it was an excellent start. Next SP EIC match is at the GA Regional. Hope to see you there!

-Chase

Good for you Chase !

Good afternoon,

The 2024 Georgia Regional is in the books, thanks to everyone who came out and shot with us.

87-96-83

Long line was great target, all shots on call. After timed, I made the ordinal sin of thinking I "had it in the bag." I did not have it in the bag, and I know better. Still, that's what happened.

Congrats to Jason Gregoire for his win!

Congrats Chase and Jason! Well deserved!

As for my 230 Cast loads for training, I took this months training session to see how well these things could do. Here’s a 50 shot target shot while my arm was rested….(I was looking to see if I had a trigger control issue). So download them and use ‘em up! Perfect for training and small matches.