Smallest caliber to reload?

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Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by beeser on Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:47 pm

A topic in the General Discussion section reminded me of a question that's been in the back of my mind for a while.  What's the smallest caliber round that can be reloaded?  If it's .22 centerfire (don't know if such a thing exists) then wouldn't this be an alternative to the .22lr ammo shortage?  Might also address the questionable quality of the .22lr ammo current available at the same time.

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by LenV on Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:18 pm

Beezer,

   Read 3.4

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:46 pm

Kinda seems to mush two topics together.

I've heard that Rule 3.4 has been called the "Askins" rule because old Charlie back in like the 1930s cooked up some .22 centerfire cartridge and ran it through Perry one year for CF and by so doing won the National Championships in Pistol.

Legend has it that some considered him a genius as the rules as written really did allow that, while others considered him a cheat. My Dad wasn't around then but still considered Askins to be one of the "nuts who ruin the sport".

Primers plus bullets takes a lot of reloaded ammo above the OLD costs of buying rimfire. But I also know one guy who just bought an air rifle two years ago rather than a .22 for practice, 'cause he just has NO PATIENCE for Unobtanium ammo.

Around here, you couldn't even get Eley, RWS, Lapua/SK, or Norma .22 LR for any price at any place for probably 3-4 months, then it didn't matter the price point, we were empty of receiving any shipments at any place at all for stretches of 2-9 weeks at a stretch.

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by beeser on Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:40 am

Well that was a quick end to apparently a not so good idea.

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by Colt711 on Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:59 am

According to Charles himself, written in his book, he adapted a .22 rf, likely a Colt Woodsman, to .25 cf for this adventure. If my memory is right he was subjected to discipline and maybe fired by the Border Patrol for it. Joe Pascarella could identify w/ Charlie!

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by kwixdraw on Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:40 am

Generally the smallest reloadable round is about like a .25 acp Beezer. Unless you are a man of extraordinary patience doing many of them will make you nuts. Its very tedious handling the small cases and bullets. Dealing with the tiny powder charges is a pain too. .02gr is a significant variation in such a light charge. The smallest thing I can force myself to deal with is .380/ 9mm short.
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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by BE Mike on Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:13 am

Colt711 wrote:According to Charles himself, written in his book, he adapted a .22 rf, likely a Colt Woodsman, to .25 cf for this adventure. If my memory is right he was subjected to discipline and maybe fired by the Border Patrol for it. Joe Pascarella could identify w/ Charlie!

Ron Habegger
And I thought Pascarella was found guilty of a felony, totally unrelated to the sport. Here is the story of the .221 Askins: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by Axehandle on Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:19 am

Lots of centerfire 22s and a few 17s to play with.  The small centerfire 22s are .224s.  Many are based on a hornet or hornet size case.  Saw a 22 TCM on a 1911 last month.  Looked like a long 9mm necked to 22. The relatively new 5.7 semi auto cartridge is just another .224 bore cartridge. Power like a rimless hornet.  These small case 22s are generally a little more powerful than a 22 mag.   Won't help you for match ammo but might give you something to shoot instead of shooting your rimfire ammo.

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by Colt711 on Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:10 am

BE Mike wrote:
Colt711 wrote:According to Charles himself, written in his book, he adapted a .22 rf, likely a Colt Woodsman, to .25 cf for this adventure. If my memory is right he was subjected to discipline and maybe fired by the Border Patrol for it. Joe Pascarella could identify w/ Charlie!

Ron Habegger
And I thought Pascarella was found guilty of a felony, totally unrelated to the sport. Here is the story of the .221 Askins: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

My remark re: Joe was not related to his legal problems. Joe won the Champs 2 consec yrs, which 2 I have forgotten, but the prior yr he lost something like 90 points due to sloppy recording on his scorecard. It was a clean target scored something like XXXXXX 10 then a line for the bal of shot's as we have all done and seen done. The shots were given the value of 0's. If he had rec'd the actual value of his shots he would have won the Champs. The scorer protested and backed Joe up to no avail. Talk had it that the "powers" didn't care for Joe and supposedly it was largely due to his initiating the red dot sights which were used so widely that it was too late to stop them w/ a rule chg.

This is the story as I recall. Subject to the errors I made in my recall that Askins used a .25 ACP. Thank you for setting me straight on that story!

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by beeser on Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:41 am

BE Mike wrote:
Colt711 wrote:According to Charles himself, written in his book, he adapted a .22 rf, likely a Colt Woodsman, to .25 cf for this adventure. If my memory is right he was subjected to discipline and maybe fired by the Border Patrol for it. Joe Pascarella could identify w/ Charlie!

Ron Habegger
And I thought Pascarella was found guilty of a felony, totally unrelated to the sport. Here is the story of the .221 Askins: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm
Interesting story about Askins in his own account of the events surrounding the modified Colt Woodsman.  I believe the book written by Askins is titled Unrepentant Sinner.  I'm tempted to purchase a copy.

I tried unsuccessfully to find more info. about Joe Pascarella other than his participation in the Knapp Commission.  What was his felony?

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by Axehandle on Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:54 pm

Seems like my first year at the Wilson Matches was 1980.   Pascarella was shooting with Lenardson on the Ohio NG Team.  They made one fine pair of old team shooters for service pistol.  The Texas NG shooting team recruited Pascarella to shoot.  What I heard was they found him a government job that was supposed to provide him with lots of flexibility to shoot.   His supervisor on his government job was not on board with the plan and expected Joe to do the job he was hired to do.  A good thing turned bad and a felony was committed.

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by Wes Lorenz on Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:59 pm

beeser wrote:A topic in the General Discussion section reminded me of a question that's been in the back of my mind for a while.  What's the smallest caliber round that can be reloaded?  If it's .22 centerfire (don't know if such a thing exists) then wouldn't this be an alternative to the .22lr ammo shortage?  Might also address the questionable quality of the .22lr ammo current available at the same time.
Funny you should ask. I have a set of chamber reamers that my great uncle had made for (I think) BR-50 competition. It's named .22 Pell and is 40gr and lighter rifle bullets in a .25acp case. He even made his own dedicated reloader for it (kinda looked like a Star). I remember seeing some impressive groups, but he kept saying there was the nagging 1 shot out that he couldn't fix.

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:12 pm

Pistol rules as of January 2014

3.2 Any Center Fire Pistol or Revolver - Center-fire pistols (single shot or semi-automatic)) or revolvers of .32 caliber or larger (including 7.65 mm and .45 caliber pistols and revolvers); barrel length, including cylinder, not more than 10 inches; trigger pull not less than 2 1/2 pounds, except.45 caliber semiautomatic pistols not less than 3 1/2 pounds. Any Sights, including telescopic, are permitted with the exception of those sights that project an image on the target. Open sights may be adjustable but not over 10 inches apart measured from the apex of the rear sight to the apex of the front sight. Any sighting device programmed to activate the firing mechanism is prohibited. All standard safety features of the gun must operate properly. 

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by BE Mike on Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:48 pm

Colt711 wrote:
BE Mike wrote:
Colt711 wrote:According to Charles himself, written in his book, he adapted a .22 rf, likely a Colt Woodsman, to .25 cf for this adventure. If my memory is right he was subjected to discipline and maybe fired by the Border Patrol for it. Joe Pascarella could identify w/ Charlie!

Ron Habegger
And I thought Pascarella was found guilty of a felony, totally unrelated to the sport. Here is the story of the .221 Askins: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/askins.htm

My remark re: Joe was not related to his legal problems. Joe won the Champs 2 consec yrs, which 2 I have forgotten, but the prior yr he lost something like 90 points due to sloppy recording on his scorecard. It was a clean target scored something like XXXXXX 10 then a line for the bal of shot's as we have all done and seen done. The shots were given the value of 0's. If he had rec'd the actual value of his shots he would have won the Champs. The scorer protested and backed Joe up to no avail. Talk had it that the "powers" didn't care for Joe and supposedly it was largely due to his initiating the red dot sights which were used so widely that it was too late to stop them w/ a rule chg.

This is the story as I recall. Subject to the errors I made in my recall that Askins used a .25 ACP. Thank you for setting me straight on that story!

Ron Habegger
I heard from someone who was at the nationals and watching Pascarella very closely with a spotting scope. The spectator saw that Pascarella was shooting exceptionally slow and didn't get off the 5th shot of his second string of timed fire IIRC. The spectator stated that he palmed a late shot, which would have cost him ten points and the championship. I believe that is the year that Bonnie Harmon came in second. Of course the group that Pascarella shot was so small that it couldn't be recognized as to whether there were 9 shots or ten on the target. The next year Pascarella was being watched closely by the officials because of this.

As I've heard the story, Pascarella was convicted of hiring a thug to do damage to his wife's lover.

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Re: Smallest caliber to reload?

Post by Colt711 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:00 am

That sounds a bit like Joe. Often on his 1st TF string he would scope the 1st shot then continue. I'm surprised a spectator could initiate all that attention though. His early yrs in shooting he shot matches around Northern Ohio and was always very good shooting 860's & 870's on an SS card. 

By the time He & Leonardson were on the all guard we would only see them @ Canton & Perry. I do recall the 1st yr Joe won he was said to be highly motivated as the argument over the scorecard errors were natually bitter and involved big names, the scorer a "name" fought pretty hard for Joe. Leonardson told us that everone was shooting for 2nd when Joe was at a match that spring. He won those 2 yrs and the next was way down (for him) and told me BE wasn't worth the effort and that he was shooting "combat" winning more $$ and  not scoring particularly well.  Sadly our ranks are thinning but "in the day" there were lots of "joe" stories. 

Wasn't he known for 11 shot SF's which he would get refires on? The refire rule change was called the Pascarella rule (informally) when initiated.

Ron Habegger

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