6 o'clock hold or not.

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6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by Magload on Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:56 pm

I am fairly new to this BE shooting except back in the early 80s when I qualified for my Expert Pistol medal with a worn out 1911.  Boy was it worn out it rattled when in battery.  Problem I am having is the black is to big I just can't seam to just aim at the X Ring.  If I shoot a target with a small black my groups tighten up a lot.  Should I be using a dot that almost covers the black as my Matchdot IIs have 1,2,3, 4 and a circle and a circle w/crosshairs.  I can see that a 6 'clock or even a 12 o.clock hold might help.  what do you guys use that seams to work best for you?  Don

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by Dr.Don on Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:31 pm

Your Matchdot II has dots of 2,4,6,8 MOA.  Most folks seem to like small dots, but I like the 8 minute dot because with that dot and either the B6 target at 50 yds or the B8 target at 25 yds a shot that breaks with the dot anywhere wholly in the black will cut the 10-ring.  As for your hold, I don't know anyone who uses a 6 o'clock or 12 o'clock hold with a dot.

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by Wobbley on Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:42 pm

With iron sights my sight picture puts the top of the post center of mass.  With a dot it is also center of mass.

With irons some shoot 6 o'clock but I found I tended to snap the shot resulting in fliers..

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Thanks

Post by Magload on Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:37 pm

Thanks the 4 MOA dot really helped.  That is a lot easier then fighting that 1 MOA dot jumping around trying to get it in the center of the X.  I like the 1 MOA when benchresting to check groups.  With the 4 MOA I started putting 8 of 10 in the black more then half being 10s and and a few of those Xs.  Don

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by desben on Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:10 pm

With a dot, center hold, no question. A bigger dot may help; the trick is to accept/ignore the wobble and bouncing around and commit to a smooth trigger press.

With iron, I'm partial to 6-o'clock myself, but sub-6. I leave a line of white between the top of my sight and the bull. I find I have a much easier time seeing my sights against the white background than the black of the bull. Like Wobbley mentioned, pinning the sight exactly at the bottom of the bull tends to make you snatch the shot when things are perfect; a band of white helps you avoid that and makes it easier to accept the wobble.

Repeat after me: Ignore the wobble and press the trigger. Smile

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by Doug Tiedt on Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:42 pm

Magload wrote:I am fairly new to this BE shooting except back in the early 80s when I qualified for my Expert Pistol medal with a worn out 1911.  Boy was it worn out it rattled when in battery.  Problem I am having is the black is to big I just can't seam to just aim at the X Ring.  If I shoot a target with a small black my groups tighten up a lot.  Should I be using a dot that almost covers the black as my Matchdot IIs have 1,2,3, 4 and a circle and a circle w/crosshairs.  I can see that a 6 'clock or even a 12 o.clock hold might help.  what do you guys use that seams to work best for you?  Don

Don,

I've had the same idea... aim small, miss small.  Sometimes I can hold such that a smaller target like the edge of the black at 6 or 12 seems
to make sense.  Other times my hold is wobbly and this seems like a bad idea.  I suppose I could adjust the dot in slow fire for one or the
other.

Bottom line is to try it and see what works for you.

Doug

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by CR10X on Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:18 am

First off, I apologize in advance in that this might sound like it does not address your question.

The simple line of "can't seam[sic] to just aim at the X ring" is the basis of a lot of issues that keep most shooters from improving (in my opinion and we all know what my wife things about my opinions).  But on to shooting.  

A lot of shooters make the comment that they can shoot smaller groups with a smaller target, but the matches ain't going to change them based on the shooters preference.  In addition, this comment also generally (I did not say always or for everyone) indicates the shooter is using the target to guide the shot, rather than the position of the gun (sight picture versus sight alignment).  This can lead to sometimes smaller groups, but larger flyers, inconsistent performance, even some flinching.  

I prefer to look at this another way.  And it might answer your questions.

I do not necessarily or specifically "aim" at anything.  I am holding the gun as parallel as possible with respect to my wobble area.  What that means is that I am working more on what would be called sight alignment than on sight picture.  (Definitions of those are available on the internet and sometimes on this list.)  

Most of us can't wobble the gun outside of the 9 ring, but we can let the gun "angle" way out past the 5 ring when trying to get the shot to complete.  So is the problem what specific point we are aiming at or is it that we need to keep the gun more aligned with the intended flight path? 

By concentrating on "aiming" at something, we tend to create the condition where we may jerk, move, react too much and yes, even flinch when trying to "catch" the dot in the center and fire the gun.  And this can work pretty good at times.  But, if the black appears to be too big, maybe we should be looking at the relationship of the dot within the black (ie, the size of the wobble) rather than putting attention on a specific point within the target? And the NRA is not really going to let us change the size of the black anyway. 

My recommendation is to select a dot size and aiming area (like the black, 7 ring, 9 ring, whatever) and train to continuously and completely complete the trigger process as long as the dot stays within that "acceptable" wobble area.  

For example if the black is too big for your small dot wobble, (feels like there is too much area and we're waiting for the dot to find the center) increase the dot size to help train to seeing the relationship of dot wobble to black size, rather than trying to fire the gun at a specific point. We are looking for the wobble to stay within the bounds of our acceptable area, getting smaller or at least no larger until the shot is completed (with our eyes wide open).  We can even think of it as looking for consistency rather than perfection if you want to.  Ten tens in a row will always beat 9 Xs and and a 7. 

No rushing, no jerking, no waiting until the dot stops or seems to (remember we're seeing things in the past anyway).  And first, get completely ready to complete the shot (grip, breathing, focus, commitment, etc.) before the gun ever leaves the bench. Secondly, if the wobble is not getting smaller or staying the same, put the gun down and keep the 10 potential points in the gun for the next attempt.  

I'll bet you get to Master way faster than trying to "aim" at the X ring.

Again, my apologies if this is too far off the mark for this discussion and if it doesn't meet your perspective on shooting, that's ok too.  I've learned there are lots of opinions among shooters......

Cecil

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by Magload on Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:56 am

That is some of the best info I have read yet.  I tend to over think everything I do but missed the point here completely.  It's all the basics that put the shot inside the wobble pattern not fighting to get the dot on the X to trigger the shot.  Yesterday I selected the 4 MOA dot and started keeping the shots in the black.  I can only shoot 20yds at the indoor range I belong to and use the 25 yard target.  Up to yesterday I was shooting high 60s to high 70s, not very good.  With the 4 MOA dot that changed to low 90s with one or two pulled shots.  I found with the larger dot I wasn't fight the wobble and could focus on trigger pull and my form.  I started to be able to call those bad shots and also got that warm fuzzy feeling when I knew the shot broke in the X ring.  I turn 70 next week and may have time to make Master.

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

Post by chopper on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:46 am

I"m glad you posted this Magload because Cecil's reply really helped me too. In another topic about Wobble by Zins in this Fundamentals forum Jon Eulette has some good advice also.
  Magload I sure hope you make Master because I'll be 65 soon and I'm aiming for it too. 
 Stan

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Re: 6 o'clock hold or not.

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