Time for Optics? When?

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Time for Optics? When?

Post by YourHuckleberry on 6/3/2017, 6:10 pm

As a newbie I'm shooting with iron sights. When is the time to go over to optics? I read advice somewhere that you should start with irons while working on and improving your fundamentals and not get optics until your scores get to 270. Is this wise? I can see sights/target ok, though anticipating the time when I can't.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Chris Miceli on 6/3/2017, 7:35 pm

The current NRA 2700 national record was set with irons, and it still stands to this day.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by jmdavis on 6/4/2017, 11:01 am

What is you ultimate goal?
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by rreid on 6/4/2017, 9:19 pm

I actually started with optics. I was never a Marksman, and I held a sharpshooter card for about 3 weeks until the expert card came. But if I knew then what I know now, I would have started with irons and stuck with them until I got distinguished.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by YourHuckleberry on 6/4/2017, 9:25 pm

To be honest, I don't have an "ultimate goal" in mind right now. I just want to be the best pistol shot I can be.

jmdavis wrote:What is you ultimate goal?
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 6/4/2017, 10:18 pm

IMO if distinguished is the goal, using irons made it easier for me in matches.  However, I like adding the dot as it adds feedback in live and dry practice.  There are things I didn't see with irons that the dot shows.  My trigger control improved dramatically.  That said, you can be a great marksman with either, but irons are cheaper if you're on a budget and rarely break and the batteries typically last pretty good...lol Wink


Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on 6/7/2017, 6:20 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Jon Eulette on 6/4/2017, 11:54 pm

Shoot both irons and optics. They enhance each other. Dot tells a great story that you can't see with irons alone. I shot both early on and had no problems going distinguished or making 2650 quickly. Learning how to squeeze trigger is more important than the sights being used.
Jon
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Wobbley on 6/5/2017, 12:11 am

I concur with Jon.  If you have a limited budget shoot dot on your 22 and irons for CF and 45.  Add optics as you can afford them.  Since EIC pistols have configuration limits to wad guns, don't put on optics until you get a dedicated EIC pistol.  Then shoot optics for 22, EIC gun for CF and then wadgun 45 with optics for 45.

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by cdrt on 6/5/2017, 7:23 am

I shot irons until I turned 65.  If you can see the front sight, there is no compelling reason to change to a dot, especially if you want to get Distinguished.  The only reason I changed over, I felt it might give me an edge with the .45 since my reflexes are not as good as they were when I was 40.  My .22 scores are the same between the dot and irons.  My .45 scores are slightly better but I can still shoot "cleans" with my Clark .38 wad gun with iron sights.  Thanks to cataract surgery, I have no problem seeing the front sight.  We had one shooter in Wichita Falls who made Master in one year, shooting his EIC pistol for everything and he used a Ruger .22/45 with irons for the .22 matches.  He made the Presidents 100 that year and he legged out the following year with the service pistol.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by fpk on 6/5/2017, 5:32 pm

Speaking as a new shooter working on trigger control, I do find that dry fire practice with the dot shows movement more clearly than with iron sights.

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Jack H on 6/5/2017, 8:31 pm

fpk wrote:Speaking as a new shooter working on trigger control, I do find that dry fire practice with the dot shows movement more clearly than with iron sights.

paul


Dot movement in relation to the target for sure.  But what about dot movement in terms of sight alignment like with irons front and rear sight.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by fpk on 6/5/2017, 8:44 pm

Jack H wrote:
fpk wrote:Speaking as a new shooter working on trigger control, I do find that dry fire practice with the dot shows movement more clearly than with iron sights.

paul


Dot movement in relation to the target for sure.  But what about dot movement in terms of sight alignment like with irons front and rear sight.
With dry fire training, I am looking to pull the trigger without any movement outside of wobble, so for me it is just about being able to see whether I succeed or not and making corrections to get a long string of pulls with no movement.

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Froneck on 6/7/2017, 2:00 pm

I think it best to start with optics! Being able to see what is happening with iron is not easy! Iron was the only thing available when I started, scopes started to enter the game but when Perry was won with an Aimpoint Red Dot the red dots became the sight most used. Putting a red dot on my gun took me out of the Marksman class and into Master though getting a better 45 helped too. When my son Adam started he only shot red dot optics. Didn't like iron! I feel that the red dot helped him see what was happening and when switching to iron his mistakes were corrected. He won the National match at Perry while still a JR (under 21) has won it a second time. Last year he won all of the major NRA action events in Production Class (iron sights) then came in 2nd overall at Perry with the red dot. This year it's the same in Metallic class, won Bianchi Cup in Metallic (iron sights) and set a record First Perfect score with iron sights! Also won the Multi Gun match (Agg of the 2 matches preceding the main match at the Bianchi Cup) with iron beating those with optics in open class!
 I personally think that it is best to start with irons sights is wrong and bad advice. I recommend anyone starting out to use a red dot! As Adam and myself what learned with the red dot sight will carry over to iron. It's more difficult the other way.
 So get a red dot on you gun!

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Tim:H11 on 6/8/2017, 7:20 am

Froneck wrote:I personally think that it is best to start with irons sights is wrong and bad advice. I recommend anyone starting out to use a red dot! As Adam and myself what learned with the red dot sight will carry over to iron. It's more difficult the other way.
 So get a red dot on you gun!

I agree and I disagree respectfully. Just tossing in my $0.02. I started out shooting muzzle loaders where iron sights are the only thing allowed. Not optics unless you're in the senior's agg. However that sport is mostly all slow fire. Now when I got into Bullseye I shot irons and soon gravitated towards the dot just because everyone seemed to be using one so I thought I'd get into that. I thought maybe theirs a benefit somewhere there. In the beginning it was rough for me. The dot movement was crazy. But that's something we all learn to work with and overcome. 

I think a shooter new the game should shoot irons on lets say a 22 because its less recoil and recovery is a little better but a dot on the 45. Or perhaps a dot sighted 22 and 45 if you want to shoot dot sights but have some EIC guns and keep up with those. Iron sights are an import part of learning how to shoot. I feel focusing on the front sight is harder than focusing on a dot and so it could drive you to hold better, focus better, and in turn probably learn better trigger control. 

A dot makes a wonderful dry fire training tool. It shows you the mistakes. But it can be a crutch too. When I went back to muzzle loaders recently after the regional's match here - I hadn't been shooting black powder much because I was preparing for the Bullseye stuff and now I'm prepping for NRA Nationals for black powder - things were a little off for me at 50. Mainly because I watch the target with the dot sight and with irons you have to watch the front sight. Have to.

I say set up guns with both and learn both. Don't rely on one or the other.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Froneck on 6/8/2017, 8:36 am

Granted there is a difference in shooting iron and red dot. Looking at the target is the recommended way for red dot while with iron the front sight must be focused on. But again learning is better with the red dot and EIC matches are limited to 30 rounds and the number of matches that can be shot. Plus the main draw back to the EIC match is that once distinguished there is little to compete for especially at Perry since to win anything you must be affiliated with the military or shooting top scores.
 Also as I pointed out Adam going into the Army did not like to shoot Iron. Getting out of basic and into the AMU late in the season (late May) was told he will go to Perry but not shoot on the team since he got to the AMU with little time to train. He was issued the guns and asked to shoot the 9mm service pistol to see what he could do. To their amazement he out shot everyone, he was put on the team as the new shooter and was the high shooter on the team at Perry, Army won the team match for the first time in many years. Plus Adam won the National Match (EIC service pistol match) As Jon pointed out learning how to squeeze the trigger is more important than the sights used. The red dot is a better way to learn the basics of Pistol shooting since it it much easier to see the errors committed while shooting. Plus it's only a matter of time before red dots will be allowed on the service pistol. Scopes are now allowed in Rifle.
 My point is shoot the red dot as soon as possible, granted a red dot of target quality is not cheap plus it must be mounted. Not wait until a certain level or score to "advance" to red dot. Yes that red dot will dance around the target, but it's doing the same thing with iron you just don't see it. That's what will help your shooting is that it's easier to see what is happening and do what is needed to correct the issues then when going to iron be able to apply what's been learned and shoot good scores.
 Dry firing is a good way to learn but there is a lot that can be learned from live fire too. Again the red dot helps because you can see it. Live fire has recoil, a target that will get hit and the pressure to shoot a good score.

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Wobbley on 6/8/2017, 9:58 am

I believe the rationale for scopes in rifle EIC matches is that optics are issued to combat troops (ACOG).  I don't think pistols are issued with optics to combat troops.

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on 6/8/2017, 11:59 am

One among many things I've enjoyed with a dot is observing follow through.  I'm not sure I could have seen and made those adjustments with irons.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Magload on 6/8/2017, 1:46 pm

You think the dot jumps around try a 2-6X pistol scope.  I often mount one when benchresting for groups when testing ammo.  I can shoot one standing with two hands on 2X but beyond that forget it.  Don
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Boris_La on 6/8/2017, 1:54 pm

Magload wrote:You think the dot jumps around try a 2-6X pistol scope.
Or offhand MS silhouette rifle with 24X scope. Compare to that pistol's red dot feels like in the vice.

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Froneck on 6/9/2017, 11:33 am

That might be the case Wobbly but then how do you explain the use of pistols and ammo that was never used by the military? Beavertails, shoes and 185gr HJP ammo in the 1911??

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by LenV on 6/9/2017, 11:55 am

Wobbley wrote:I believe the rationale for scopes in rifle EIC matches is that optics are issued to combat troops (ACOG).  I don't think pistols are issued with optics to combat troops.
Not yet. From the looks of the new pistol adopted by armed services I don't think it will be long.
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Re: Time for Optics? When?

Post by Wobbley on 6/9/2017, 1:18 pm

Froneck wrote:That might be the case Wobbly but then how do you explain the use of pistols and ammo that was never used by the military? Beavertails, shoes and 185gr HJP ammo in the 1911??
Who knows what evil lies in the hearts of CMP?  Maybe The Shadow but certainly not I.

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Re: Time for Optics? When?

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