Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

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Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by MarkOue on 8/11/2017, 4:10 pm

What are your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for NRA Conventional Pistol - 2700 point matches?  At the National Matches the NRA has a .22 only for the 2700 point match.  Doing the same for revolvers would bring something new or should I say old to the competitions.

I sent an email suggesting this to the NRA pistol competitions last week.  Thus far, no reply.

This has probably been suggested before.  What to you think?


Last edited by MarkOue on 8/11/2017, 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Rob Kovach on 8/11/2017, 4:27 pm

The only problem regarding adding additional sub-categories is the computer programming to administer it.

We are still waiting for NRA implementation of the "Iron sights" sub-class and they made that rule change years ago.
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by LenV on 8/11/2017, 7:03 pm

Read the rules for "Production" class. It almost screams revolver at you. I should say it screams that if you want to win. Not a lot of choices for SA/DA in 22 or 45 that are as accurate as a revolver. For CF you could use a 52 no dash that would be perfectly legal but also kind of rule bending.
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Chris Miceli on 8/11/2017, 7:06 pm

LenV wrote:Read the rules for "Production" class. It almost screams revolver at you. I should say it screams that if you want to win. Not a lot of choices for SA/DA in 22 or 45 that are as accurate as a revolver. For CF you could use a 52 no dash that would be perfectly legal but also kind of rule bending.
They killed production at the pistol meeting at perry this year
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Multiracer on 8/11/2017, 7:25 pm

Yes they did, gave it back to CMP

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/11/2017, 7:44 pm

Hell we can't hardly get 15 shooters to show up at a monthly match with typical pistols. Another class doesn't help things. Now 1 guy will show up and compete against himself with a revolver. Really not wanting to be a pessimist.......
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by joy2shoot on 8/11/2017, 8:44 pm

I see and agree with Jon's point.  Every now and then at our local 900 match, we make it revolver only (well, for those who want to shoot revolver).  Since these are not reported to NRA, we have been known to mix things up, such as shooting the 900 in reverse....RF first, then TF, then NMC and finally SF.

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Rob Kovach on 8/11/2017, 10:54 pm

We just call all of our buddies who are still chasing DR and agree among ourselves that the CF stage of Jon's match is going to be DR legal only and we all just compete amongst ourselves. We don't even tell the match director and the scores go on to the NRA as usual.  We shoot our self-imposed rules while everyone else shoots whatever they wanted.
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by MarkOue on 8/12/2017, 7:31 am

I read other’s comments that the sport of Bullseye, Conventional Pistol is dying.  The reduced number of active competitors is a matter of fact.  Dying may be a word much too harsh but the popularity of Bullseye matches is certainly waning.  The reasons for this are many.  Allow me to use our sister shooting discipline as an example.
 
How many of us who shoot the Pistol National Matches at Camp Perry have participated in or gone to watch the High Power Rifle nationals?  Not many I presume.  Go watch a day of high power and you will be surprised at what you see!  For me the differences between rifle and pistol participation was obvious. The service rifles are no longer large M-14’s and M1A’s.  Those platforms were expensive in building to achieve match level accuracy.  In the old days a match rifle was bolt action, heavy barreled, roller bolt handle (ball), and expensive to build.  Now the line is filled with mostly AR-based space or tube guns.  People can screw the together in their basement is they chose.  Barrels are simple to change and the whole trigger group is off-the-shelf drop in!  The service rifle of today is easy and less expensive to build and suited to smaller people.  
 
The relays of years ago were filled much like today’s pistol matches, with men.  The few women shooting had grit because the rifles of old were designed for a medium size or larger man.  Today the national rifle matches include 20 or more percentage of women.  Not large women either, there are teenage and petite adult women shooting good scores along men of all sizes.  There are other changes like 4 power scopes allowed on service rifles since the military now equips front line troops with scopes.  Change is what keeps High Power rifle shooting popular.
 
High Power rifle competition has evolved and the attendance at the Nationals is high.  With the boom in AR rifle popularity there are local matches of many disciplines.  These include 100 and 200 yard reduced target, regular 200 to 600 national match course, mid-range prone from 300 to 600, and although not my choice for an AR, long range to 1000.  Then there is that thing call F-Class shooting 1000 yards from a sophisticated from bipod and rear bag.  That sounds easy compared to prone “sling shooting” but wait, in prone the 10 ring is 20” in diameter but for F-Class it’s a 10” ten ring.  Not so easy.  Yes, there have been many changes to rifle competitions and in total, I think there are more active combined competitors than ever.
 
In pistol competition the draw away from Bullseye includes every type of video game and Hollywood inspired "Billy Bad AXX" disciplines.  Steel plates, Bianchi Cup, modern 3-Gun (run and gun) , and a slew of other spectator-friendly competitions that quite frankly look fun!  Add to that those disciplines that add to one’s concealed carry – defensive shooting skills.  There are probably more people shooting some type of pistol competition than were decades ago.  They are just spread across a much larger field of disciplines. Our discipline, Bullseye is being sucked dry. 
 
But wait, there has been a change or two for the better.  The overall winner of any Bullseye match is and should always be the person shooting the highest score using legal handguns and cartridges/calibers.  Adding the .22 only class to the Nationals opened those matches to many who for reasons of age, income, ability, or personal preference compete with something different.  Not using a centerfire or .45 does however disqualify them from ever being the overall national champion.
 
The metallic sight class is interesting but waiting on what to implement?  Software?  Okay, software coding is tricky and expensive to get it right the first time.  I was very impressed on how fast the NRA posted a relay’s scores online.  Within an hour or less after completion of a relay at Camp Perry I could find the scores on their competition webpage.  Separating scores into 3-gun, .22, metallic sights, and my suggesting revolvers only is a challenge but not insurmountable.  One of the CMP matches listed the manufacturer of everyone’s gun. 
 
Every sport waxes and wanes as time passes.  People try it and for whatever reason do not become serious and leave.  Others train hard but life such as families, work, finances, and other factors don’t allow them to reach their goals.  Many leave the sport for at least a period in their lives.  Others train and train but never reach the top levels such as High Master classification.  For the first and the third and a good part of the second, something different may keep those shooters in our game. 
 
Too me, revolvers are interesting and a real challenge to keep the sights aligned while squeezing through a double action trigger pull.  Oh, forget about me and single action rapid fire!  I’m not that coordinated, at least not at this time.  To me, shooting revolvers in a Bullseye match is action shooting.  This might never be my primary focus but having a class for revolvers only will draw not only my interest but that of many others.  I have shooting friends asking me about shooting revolvers in matches.  Maybe it’s only those raised on cowboy and Dirty Harry movies that fancy revolvers but be assured there is interest if the NRA would present the opportunity.  Look at those Cowboy Action shooters!  It would be a pain in the butt, but giving them time to reload a single action revolver during timed and rapid fire might also draw in new shooters. 
 
Next point, correct me if I’m wrong but if there are not at least five competitors in a class they are bumped to the higher class(ification)?   If a match can’t draw 15 entries this year how many will enter in five years?  Recent rule changes allow many other service pistols to be used for matches.  This seemed strange at first but now I understand.  There are so many autoloaders available today that if one can shoot a respectable score with a Glock or Springfield Armory polymer gun who cares?  Let’s get them to compete.  If they become national champion then we better open our eyes to change.  Then there are those darn Berettas and now the 9mm is legal in a 1911.  Unbelievable but true! 
 
Here’s another shocking suggestion:  What about allowing a “lower” class for two-handed shooters?  They could graduate to one hand when their abilities allow.  Bullseye could be the platform for learning the fundamentals of match accuracy.  Those shooters could then move onto action shooting.  I bet the serious ones would shoot a couple Bullseyes each year to tune up their skills prior to serious action matches.  Just a wild thought.
 

The only constant in the universe is change.  Change or get left behind…

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by CR10X on 8/12/2017, 8:02 am

Please don't take this the wrong way, and I think its great that you (and others) care enough about the sport to think about what we should do.  But, here's the perspective of someone that's heard this a couple hundred times before when someone comes up with something they think is the next best thing for bullseye, shooting, or whatever.  Just do a search and see how many times this type of topic has been covered.  

In the final analysis, conventional pistol shooting is not a competition with anyone else but yourself.  Classes, equipment, awards, whatever external rewards there may be pale in comparison to the internal rewards for that type of person.  Precision pistol shooting is generally for the internally motivated and those people are the ones that will stick with it.  Externally motivated shooters generally eventually get to other (shooting or whatever) sports. 

Don't know where you're at, but around here most bullseye matches are generally close to full.  I generally have a waiting list each month for a 20 position range and the next closest match comes close to filling a 40 position range each month.  (So what makes that happen  --  see below) 

If you read the NRA Precision Pistol rules, you will find that you can have a revolver only match for left handed WWII veterans if you think that's what you want.  Simply set it up and run it.  Yes, two handed can be offered too.  So what don't those matches exist?  (Again, see below). 

Revolvers are generally inherently more accurate, their just a little harder to shoot in rapid fire for some folks.  So basically there is not enough distinction among the equipment to make a difference as most people find out.   Do we think that many more people will actually participate for another "participation award" class just because they shot a revolver? Will they come back when another shooter smokes their 2250 score with a 2635? Just like the CMP .22 Distinguished matches, the great shooters will continue to win until they get points or meet their personal goals no matter what the equipment specifications are; then move back to the ultimate goal of Open class.  Anyway, got off the subject a little bit. 

Again, and as I have repeated numerous times.  If we want more participation then we simply need to have more matches.  That's means someone has to put them together and run them.  Consistently!  But unfortunately, that takes someone to actually do the work, rather than just having an idea.  And the guy that runs the match does not get to shoot and that takes real commitment.  Most Match Directors put on matches that attract the most shooters as far as I can tell since they are not there just for themselves.  I can tell you what if the guy running the match thought it would make a difference, he would generally do it.  

But we eventually get back to the real core issue in that if we want more participation, we need to have more matches. 

As the Hot Dog vendor said to the Dali Lama when he asked for change back for a $20 for a hotdog that was "one with everything"......   

"Change comes from within."

Send me an invitation to the match and I'll try to make it.

CR

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Wobbley on 8/12/2017, 10:10 am

The draw for the "Action" pistol shooting games is there.  They get the industry support.  They've had the press coverage.  The guns and shooter's names become commonly known.  How many "gun shop commandos" know who Brian Zins is?  But they all know who Rob Leatham is.  We've had 50 years of this, starting in the mid 60s with the advocacy of "modern pistol shooting" by the likes of Jeff Cooper.  Funny, though, precision shooters seem to do better in these action games than action shooters do in precision games.  Even if they use two hands.

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by dronning on 8/12/2017, 10:35 am

Wobbley wrote:The draw for the "Action" pistol shooting games is there.  They get the industry support.  They've had the press coverage.  The guns and shooter's names become commonly known.  How many "gun shop commandos" know who Brian Zins is? 
A simplistic view:

  • Any action shooting=Fun to watch=interest=Sponsors=$$=TV Coverage=More$$ & Exposure=More New Shooters
  • Precious Pistol=Like watching Paint dry=few Sponsors=No TV..........Crying or Very sad

-Dave
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by joy2shoot on 8/12/2017, 11:47 am

Couple thoughts.

In addition to more matches as a draw, our local facility match director puts on an Introduction to Bullseye clinic.  He gets good turnout at these clinics.  Conversion to an actual bullseye shooter is low but I would expect that from any sport.  But the point is there is some conversion.

When I got back into shooting after a 20+ year hiatus, I was attracted to Cowboy Action...shooters my age, looks cool, three guns, etc.  That lasted about 1 year.  I got tired of waiting around for hours so I could shoot for 40 seconds a couple of times.

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Russ OR on 8/12/2017, 3:00 pm

Not for me: - Our sport seems too busy already. -  -- 
&  w/ practice and the 2½# revolver trigger pull -it's not giving up that much.
with thin rubber tap for the hammer to fall on one can practice dry-fire Timed & rapid with good results.

I recently shot (really enjoyed) a few matches w/ a S&W 625 in CF and 45.
Might try optics on my 2nd S&W 14-4 for CF.

22 ? -- -I'll stay with a semi-auto....

2¢  -- Russ

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Froneck on 8/12/2017, 4:50 pm

I agree with Jon and the others about running a revolver only match. Years ago there were quite a few revolver only matches, many were shot in the Police Style matches but over the years they changed to any gun because less and less competitors wanted to shoot revolvers. A few clubs I know of did have a few revolver only matches that only attracted a few competitors. Those clubs running the DR match only have a few competitors. Same goes for production only. Bianchi Cup thought adding the production class would increase attendance, it did for a while but it's dropping. That's another joke because too many new shooters think the guys with the fancy decked out guns have an advantage because of the gun and soon find that it's not the gun that makes the difference when they get their butts kicked by the top shooters shooting production guns. Same goes for the iron sight sub class! Many of the records that have been set were done with iron sights so what is iron only going to add?? The DR, National Match, Presidents 100 and .22 distinguished are iron only, why add more?

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by LenV on 8/12/2017, 10:38 pm

Russ OR wrote:Not for me: - Our sport seems too busy already. -  -- 
&  w/ practice and the 2½# revolver trigger pull -it's not giving up that much.
with thin rubber tap for the hammer to fall on one can practice dry-fire Timed & rapid with good results.

I recently shot (really enjoyed) a few matches w/ a S&W 625 in CF and 45.
Might try optics on my 2nd S&W 14-4 for CF.

22 ? -- -I'll stay with a semi-auto....

2¢  -- Russ
I see a challenge here Russ. State matches are coming soon. I will shoot the whole match with wheel guns if you will. You know we will be lumped in with the HM's because there are not enough Masters here for our own class. Then we could be the old Masters that lost to the field because we were shooting wheel guns instead of just he old part of that sentence. I need a good reason to drill and tap my 17 no dash.

Len (the other Master shooting expert scores) Smile
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Russ OR on 8/13/2017, 1:58 am

Hi Len,  --- I'll take a rain check on the revolver only State Match - or Regional - been gearing up for the wad gun. Maybe this fall?  

Russ

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Rob Kovach on 8/13/2017, 10:14 am

MarkOue wrote:The only constant in the universe is change.  Change or get left behind…

Just like Cecil said: these ideas have been tried. The rulebook already allows 2 handed shooting for a "probationary classification".  Our sport's participation has more pressure from external forces--it really doesn't require much internal change.

It does require some additional support from the sanctioning body to make it easier to conduct matches and administer them. I'm working on external solutions to that issue as we speak.

Cecil, I have come up with a solution that allows match directors to participate in the matches they hold: I list my wife as the match director and stat officer so I can shoot.  Hell--list any NRA member as the match official.  Maybe I'll list Charlton Heston as my next match director.
Sure it's a little sketchy....it's less risky for my area because nobody at our matches is ever going to set a national record.

MarkOue,

Communicate with Ralph Wilson and the match officials at the Aurora Sportsman Club in Waterman, IL. They have discussed a BP revolver match as well as other revolver only matches.  It might be a fit for you.
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by CR10X on 8/13/2017, 4:11 pm

For Approved Matches, Match Directors can participate but the Supervisor may not.  I'm always listed as Match Director since I sent up the matches, responsible for reporting, etc.  I am also the Supervisor if I'm running the line or calling the matches as well as the CRO.  So my sentence should have read " the guy running the match does not get to shoot".  At Approved Matches, there should always be a Supervisor and CRO at the match (it can be the same person) to run the match and monitoring the line while a match is in progress.  Usually that's the guy calling / running the match who is also the Match Director in my case.  See Rule Book Section 11.

Cecil 

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Chris Miceli on 8/13/2017, 4:15 pm

OKC gun club runs a state championship 2700, state championship 900 service pistol, state championship 900 revolver match. The revolver and service pistol state match is run on the same day.
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by MarkOue on 8/14/2017, 11:09 am

I want to thank everyone for their comments.  Very informative. 

Mark

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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by Ghillieman on 8/14/2017, 12:17 pm

Shoot all revolvers, that's fine with me. Get the NRA to implement it, HA good luck with that. We are still waiting for Metallic and Military Veteran to be included at the Nationals. I doubt we will see either after what was said at the competitors meeting this year. But I do think an all revolver agg trophy at Perry would be something great. A Harry Reeves + Distinguished Revolver + All Revolver 2700. Just don't hold your breath....
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by orpheoet on 8/15/2017, 7:01 pm

Once i figure out a good 50 yard load for either of my 25-2's (or give up and use my Model of 1988) I fully intend to shoot an all revolver match.
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by LenV on 8/15/2017, 7:21 pm

orpheoet wrote:Once i figure out a good 50 yard load for either of my 25-2's (or give up and use my Model of 1988) I fully intend to shoot an all revolver match.
3.8 gr BE, 200gr LSWC, crimp .465, O.A.L. depends on your bullet choice.
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Re: Your thoughts on a Revolver Only category for Conventional Pistol Matches???

Post by orpheoet on 8/15/2017, 9:40 pm

LenV wrote:
orpheoet wrote:Once i figure out a good 50 yard load for either of my 25-2's (or give up and use my Model of 1988) I fully intend to shoot an all revolver match.
3.8 gr BE, 200gr LSWC, crimp .465, O.A.L. depends on your bullet choice.
Len,
I have that exact load as one of my candidates for the next time I try it out at 50. Thanks.
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