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Improving slow fire score?

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Post by Mike38 Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:31 pm

What can I do to improve my slow fire scores? Dry fire more often, yes, I should do that. But there must be something I'm missing. With a .22, right now my average SF score is probably around 78, and my timed and rapid scores are probably around 92. If I could get my SF scores up to match those on the short line, I would make Expert. I had a high master give me some advise on SF a few months ago. Basically he said treat each individual SF shot as I would the second shot of sustained fire. While bringing the sight down onto the target, start applying pressure on the trigger, and when timed just right, the shot will break when the front sight is at the six o'clock position. Don't over think, don't wait for that perfect sight picture, send the shot. Ok, that helped some, but what else can I do? Thanks.
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Post by fc60 Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:37 pm

Greetings,

If you have access to 25 yard turning targets and a helper to turn them, shoot one shot in two seconds.

Repeat this exercise for a while.

Soon, you will notice your shots grouping in the black.

Now, apply the same technique at 50 yards.

The goal is to align the sights and release the trigger training your sub-conscious.

The above training helped me to break 2600 back in my younger days.

Cheers,

Dave
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Post by Wobbley Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:03 pm

Go to an indoor range.  One of the new ones.  Make sure they have a lane control by Meggit.  Program that to give you a 10 second exposure then edge for 20 seconds.   Get a B16 target (25 Y slow) and put it at 25.  Train yourself to either shoot in 10 seconds or put the gun down for a 20 second rest.  When you can shoot SOLID 9s or better for ten shots with 10 second exposures no resting.  You will be there.
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Post by Ed Hall Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:27 pm

Mike38 wrote:... and when timed just right, ...
Be careful of your understanding of this.  All the rest is good, but you can't consciously look for this moment becasue when you recognize it, it is already history.  Also, if this timing is what you're searching for, you are also missing the moment.  You should follow the description up to the point of trigger initiation and then keep the finger moving in a determined fashion until it fires.  This should not be an extended period of time.  When you have trained enough, the "timed just right" understanding will really be an observation that it happened, rather than an action to try to make it happen.

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Post by Tim:H11 Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:28 pm

One thing that holds shooters back is the manipulation of the trigger. Slow fire trigger control can be very difficult to get down. We can get to the point where we have a good hold and our wobble area is small enough to where we think "okay, now I'm ready to get this one down there" so we start pressing the trigger. But the movement we add to the trigger shows up in the sights. The sights move and we stop the trigger press until the gun calms down. We react to what we see more so than what we feel in the trigger. So it turns into this song and dance routine of "sights align, press trigger, sights move, stop trigger, sights align, press trigger some more, sights move, stop trigger" and so on until it does finally break and the shot goes where? Not where you wanted it to because of two things usually:

1.) You held entirely too long to get the shot off because you played red light green light with the trigger. Your window of opportunity when you hold the best with the least amount of movement, or have the smallest wobble area, is gone. The arm fatigued and wobble increased. 

2.) As you do this song and dance of press, stop, press, stop there is a tendency to increase pressure in your grip. Increasing pressure in grip will do a couple of things. It's going to lessen your dexterity in your trigger finger, and the trigger won't feel so nice and easy to press anymore. You'll think "the trigger should have broke by now...???" so you'll push down on it and force the shot. Gone. Wasted out in the land of the white rings. You might also be squeezing the grip or increasing pressure in grip as you press the trigger. Your shot will be redirected because your gripping is whats influencing the gun as well as poor trigger control. 

So to tell you what would be better than the above... if any of the above happens to be your issue... I don't know that it is.... But I would suggest:

1.) Make sure to learn to keep grip pressure consistent from start to finish of the shot. Do not lessen, and do not increase. Keep it the same.

2.) In relation to the previous statement, our trigger finger needs to be separate in operation from the rest of the hand. Hard to do but you will in time find a happy mix between grip pressure and trigger control. 

3.) When coming down on to target, start your press of the trigger and keep it moving. Don't stop. Stoping is bad. Keep it smooth, keep it fluid like. If you're not settling into your wobble area, then abort the shot. If you're fighting too hard to keep the sights there and you feel the trigger getting heavier then stop. Put the gun down. Relax. Breath. Start over. 

Don't rush the trigger. You'll learn a speed thats good for you. For me I like a short roll feeling trigger so I can start the trigger moving slower and before long the trigger just passes through softly and away goes a 200 grain LSWC headed for the black. 

I'm also a target watcher when it comes to red dots. I watch the target and as the dot starts being more of a part of the center of the target, I really lay on the trigger and off she goes. But I don't rush the shot. I don't mash down on the trigger. I just commit to the press and go through with it. Dry firing will help see what mistakes are made in trigger control. Recoil masks issues. 

Learn to trust your hold, and commit to the shot. You CAN achieve what you're after. You have to know it and believe it and trust it whole heartedly and commit to the action. Not all the shots will be good ones all the time. But over time, less and less will be lonely on the paper while the group lays somewhere else.
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Post by robert84010 Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:42 pm

Mike, I know you want answers but can you answer a couple of questions:

In a 10 shot slow fire string how long does it take you to take your grip on the pistol and do you break that grip during the string?

In a 10 shot SF string how many times do you dryfire before you take your first shot on target?

In a 10 shot SF string how many times do you abort a shot and restart, on average?

Are to the point on the TF/RF target that you know exactly what a 10 looks like in your sight/dot?

of course there are no wrong answers but this might let everyone discuss what I consider some finer points of slow fire.

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Post by Chris Miceli Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:17 pm

if you can't clean put 20 shots in a row in any time limit into a 10 ring at 25 yards how can you at 50?  I would work off X count training manual 
http://www.distinguishedprecision.com/X-Count-Training-Systems-Progressive-Pistol-Primer-A-Training-Plan-for-Recreational-and-Beginning-Competitive-Shooters_p_2756.html

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Post by john bickar Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:10 pm

Which stage of the Marine Corps training manual are you stuck on?
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Post by john bickar Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:16 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:One thing that ...
There's a lot of "don't"s and "stinkin' thinkin'" in that wall of words. Try simplifying.
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Post by Tim:H11 Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:29 pm

john bickar wrote:
Tim:H11 wrote:One thing that ...
There's a lot of "don't"s and "stinkin' thinkin'" in that wall of words. Try simplifying.


.... trigger control.... Fix it. 

How’d I do?
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Post by john bickar Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:33 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:
trigger control

How’d I do?

You're getting there. I still have to wade through quite a few words in your signature line(s)...
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Post by Mike38 Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:48 pm

In a 10 shot slow fire string how long does it take you to take your grip on the pistol and do you break that grip during the string?

Obtaining a proper grip takes me around 10 to 15 seconds. I do not change grip unless the first 2 or 3 shots tell me there's a problem with my grip.

In a 10 shot SF string how many times do you dryfire before you take your first shot on target?

2 or 3 at the beginning of the match, then non there after.

In a 10 shot SF string how many times do you abort a shot and restart, on average?

Probably less than 1% of the time.

Are to the point on the TF/RF target that you know exactly what a 10 looks like in your sight/dot?

I can call real good shots, also real bad shots, but can't tell the difference between, say, an 8 or a 9.
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Post by Tim:H11 Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:53 pm

john bickar wrote:
Tim:H11 wrote:
trigger control

How’d I do?

You're getting there. I still have to wade through quite a few words in your signature line(s)...

I can’t please everyone, you’ll just have wade on through the best you can, sorry.
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Post by Mike38 Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:02 pm


Which stage of the Marine Corps training manual are you stuck on?

Slow fire, I have yet to put 10 shots within the aiming black. I did skip to timed and rapid, did okay there, came back to slow fire, still no, put the book away. May get it out again.
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Post by john bickar Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:14 pm

Mike38 wrote:

Which stage of the Marine Corps training manual are you stuck on?

Slow fire, I have yet to put 10 shots within the aiming black. I did skip to timed and rapid, did okay there, came back to slow fire, still no, put the book away. May get it out again.

Therein lies your answer.
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Post by Jack H Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:27 am

Ed Hall wrote:
Mike38 wrote:... and when timed just right, ...
Be careful of your understanding of this.  All the rest is good, but you can't consciously look for this moment becasue when you recognize it, it is already history.  Also, if this timing is what you're searching for, you are also missing the moment.  You should follow the description up to the point of trigger initiation and then keep the finger moving in a determined fashion until it fires.  This should not be an extended period of time.  When you have trained enough, the "timed just right" understanding will really be an observation that it happened, rather than an action to try to make it happen.


Ed.  Very good sir.  One of the best lines ever.
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Post by Jwhelan939 Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:18 am

Just to clarify, for those masters and high masters that responded, your hold/shot in slow fire still only takes a second to pull off. You just pick and choose which attempts to abort and which to complete? Meaning you don't hold your arm out there for 10 seconds looking for the "perfect" shot?

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Post by Tim:H11 Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:36 am

Jwhelan939 wrote:Just to clarify, for those masters and high masters that responded, your hold/shot in slow fire still only takes a second to pull off. You just pick and choose which attempts to abort and which to complete? Meaning you don't hold your arm out there for 10 seconds looking for the "perfect" shot?

No not really. I'm accused often of holding way too long but that's because I'm very slow on the trigger. The idea is to press and keep pressing. For me its a slow press. I probably take up to 10 second give or take sometimes longer. I've been working on getting it down to about seven seconds give or take. And I'm not looking for the perfect shot. Theres an acceptable amount of wobble that I'm content with.
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Post by Mike38 Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:26 pm

Thanks for the replies so far. Gives me something to work with / on. Here's something I found out today while dry firing. I think I'm doing the lower sight onto target while slowly increasing trigger pressure, correctly. But, when I see that sight / target alinement where I want it, I'm snatching the trigger. So I tried lower the sight down to the six o'clock area a little quicker while still increasing trigger pressure, holding at six o'clock for one, maybe two seconds, or just enough time to tell myself "front sight dummy" continue trigger pressure until the sear breaks. All this in one continuous fluid motion. It took me quite a few times to get what I felt was good, but I got there and it may stop that trigger snatch. Am I on the right track? Keep those replies coming!
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Post by PhotoEscape Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:10 am

FWIW - I decided to express my opinion unrelated to the topic of this post, but rather John Bickar's call for brevity.  Tim:H11 (sorry, don't know your name) - keep doing it.  Your ability to explain things in common language supersedes luck of such by many others. And you definitely don't exceed number of pages in AMU training manual on the subject, where after reading few dozen pages on page few dozen + 1 one can find suggested hold time before shot should be aborted due to the arm fatigue.  If anything else, - I appreciate time you are taking to answer call from someone who's not at the master level, but wants to get there.
AP
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Post by Chris Miceli Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:49 am

The biggest improved to your slow fire after learning fundamentals of a proper trigger pull is accepting your movement. You’ll know when you’ve done it. No way to really explain it but have complete faith in your movement and be confident on the trigger. If the thought even enters your mind that you can save this shot or still make it a x or 10. Put down the gun clear your mind and restart. Consistency in all your actions will result like similar shots. So be a robot

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Post by PhotoEscape Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:04 pm

I believe, it is called "embrace your wobble".  In theory wobble resembles movement close to this shape [size=32]∞.  The key it to pull trigger when one's sight is at the intersection of loops.[/size]
[size=32]AP[/size]
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Post by Chris Miceli Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:08 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:I believe, it is called "embrace your wobble".  In theory wobble resembles movement close to this shape [size=32]∞.  The key it to pull trigger when one's sight is at the intersection of loops.[/size]
[size=32]AP[/size]
Everyone’s movement is different. I get two periods of no movement in my hold each is for a few seconds. One is shortly after settling and the other if I’m holding longer is after I reset my breathing.if I miss those windows I have to restart.

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Post by Jack H Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:12 pm

When I was younger, I considered wobble to be the front sight moving in the rear notch.  I do not recall being concerned with the bull.
The bull was just part of the sight picture.
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Post by PhotoEscape Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:26 pm

http://progunfighter.com/fundamentals-grip/

Chris,
I think, you are talking exactly of the moments when you/one should pull trigger.  You are experienced enough to recognize this, and abort any further attempt to force shot.  If you don't, your movement will resemble endless loop (digit 8 flipped over on its side), albeit it might not be in its pure form and would be distorted based in one's individual qualities.  When you reset your breathing, your arm automatically goes up and down, and adjustment might be needed, - that depends on how rigid is your stance.  This is where/why understanding NPOA so important.  There was discussion of this topic somewhere on the forum, although leading question was rather something else.
AP
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