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How much Holding Drill and dry-fire practicels is appropriate during training

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How much Holding Drill and dry-fire practicels is appropriate during training Empty How much Holding Drill and dry-fire practicels is appropriate during training

Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:31 am

When I used to dry-fire for about half an hour every day, everything seemed fine, although it took a while to notice the benefits.

I've noticed that if I dry-fire for an hour, something in my shoulder/neck/arm starts to feel sore.  In two days maximum, all is back to normal.


Not wanting to develop any shoulder issues, I'm wondering if this is perfectly normal, or does it mean I should shorten my dry-fire practice sessions, maybe doing them more often, but for a shorter period of time.  I guess my question is "how much is too much", or maybe I should word it "is it normal to feel "sore" after doing this?

(Just for reference, Keith Sanderson suggested something like one minute of "holding", followed by two minutes of "rest".  I'm sure the "holding" is what is causing the discomfort, not the firing.  It's not really "pain", just a feeling of being "sore".  Nothing hurts if my move my arm around, or hold the gun out in front of me. )


Last edited by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added "holding drills" to title)
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Post by CR10X on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:10 am

Same answer as always.

How long can you stay 100%, absolutely and completely focused on the training goal for that dry fire session and continue to successfully complete the actions required to meet that goal?

You can spend all the time in the world holding the gun out there just pulling the trigger or something, but if you don't have a singular and specific goal, you are either practicing mediocrity, or just jerking......

An hour seems way too long unless you have some kind of Vulcan mind control.

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Post by SteveT on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:18 am

30-60 minutes of steady dry firing means you are raising a 2-3 pound weight 100 times or more. That will make my arm sore. That is generally a good thing to strengthen the muscles and have better endurance in an all day match.

As Cecil said, your mental focus should be the deciding factor for how long you dry fire.

I have no medical training, just some injuries, but I am not aware of risk of injury from dry firing. The weight we are holding up is small enough that it shouldn't be straining anything too bad. Excessive live firing, especially with hot ball ammo, gave me elbow pain that took a few months to go away.
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:34 am

CR, my primary goal for me is to be able to hold the gun steadily, without it shaking due to the weight.  The reason for doing what I'm doing is Keith Sanderson's video on "Dry Fire and Holding Drills".



Until now, the "holding drill" has worked best for me by adding weight to the gun, and holding it long enough such that my muscles get stronger.  When I remove the weight, the gun feels like it's made from plastic, and is infinitely easier to concentrate on "shooting", rather than avoiding the shaking that used to be such a problem.  To simulate a loaded magazine, I use ahold magazine filled with lead.

From that, I decided on about 30 seconds "holding" and one minute of "rest".  I used to do this three times a day, most days of the week; I now do it for 45 minutes, hold, then rest.

I know what you mean, and I don't disagree, but that wasn't my question.  My fault - I should have said "Holding Drills" in the title for this thread.  I'll fix that, if the system lets me change it.

(All this is in addition to what you recommend.)
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:50 am

SteveT wrote:30-60 minutes of steady dry firing means you are raising a 2-3 pound weight 100 times or more. That will make my arm sore. That is generally a good thing to strengthen the muscles and have better endurance in an all day match........
SteveT, that is what I meant to ask, and the exact reason why I have been doing it, and I think it works beautifully.  Three or four years ago, when I first started to train for one handed shooting, I flat out could not hold a 1911 out in front of me for more than a few seconds.  I didn't think I'd ever be able to do so.  Trusting Keith, I gradually worked up to where I can now hold the gun, with the lead filled magazine, for the specified 30 seconds.  To make this far less boring, lately I've been carefully dry-firing at a blank wall one or two times during that 30 seconds.

For only dry-firing (not holding), I get into position, feet, arms, head, etc., grip the gun exactly the same, raise my arm, lower it to where a target ought to be, watch the dot until it gets the most steady, and try to gradually add pressure to the trigger.  Then there is one or two seconds of follow-through, and I lower my arm.  During that time, I'm 100% focused, but that ends when the gun is lowered.


Doing the holding drill for 45 minutes sometimes makes my arm/shoulder sore.  If I do it for 30 minutes, nothing gets sore.  I read somewhere that if you push yourself a little beyond your natural ability, that's a good thing.  

.......and nothing ever gets sore during "dry firing".   ......but too hold my hand out for rapid fire, I figure I better be able to hold my hand still for that long.
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:55 am

.......and to further complicate things, for the past month I've started to do this with my left hand, but for a shorter amount if time - after that, my hand starts to shake, and it's pointless to continue.  Still, I've gotten from where I might have missed the side of a barn, to where the holes wold have been on the backing board, to where I am now where the holes ought to be some place on the target.  I haven't actually shot even once with my left hand, but that's coming soon.  (When Keith Sanderson injured his right hand, he trained himself to use his left hand, to the point where he could compete well left handed..... )
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:09 pm

CR10X wrote:.........How long can you stay 100%, absolutely and completely focused on the training goal for that dry fire session and continue to successfully complete the actions required to meet that goal? .......
An honest answer to your question would probably be just one or maybe two minutes, if that.  I can stay totally focused for the time it takes to fire five slow-fire shots at the range, but with a 1911 in dry-fire, I only get to "fire" once.  Invariably, my concentration is broken as soon as I lower my arm, at home, or at the range.
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Post by SteveT on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:18 pm

I don't like to practice holding the gun and NOT pulling the trigger when the sights are aligned. I do holding exercises with 3 lb dumbbells, 30 seconds in shooting position right handed, then 30 seconds left, 10 times each, take a break and repeat.

Some people have talked about holding a dumbbell out while driving, but my seating position means it is totally different than when I am standing.
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Post by Jack H on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:34 pm

Do you warm up and stretch before a session?
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Post by inthebeech on Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:16 pm

If it HURTS, don't do it!
Do you really need to be told this?

Seriously though this seems like you're doing quantity and not quality.
How in the world can you do a detail analysis of every pull of the trigger with this kind of ironman training plan.  And I am NOT talking about physical demands.  After twenty rounds of dry fire where I dissect every trigger pull, evaluate and grade, followed by a revised shot process goal for the subsequent shot, I am not able to help my kids with their math homework.  I'm drained.
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:05 pm

inthebeech wrote:.........Seriously though this seems like you're doing quantity and not quality...............How in the world can you do a detail analysis of every pull of the trigger with this kind of ironman training plan........
If you watch the video Keith posted, you'll understand.  The part I'm asking about is the Holding Drill, not the trigger actuation.  

There's a lot of stuff I've done that leaves me feeling sore; when I used to exercise, one went with the other.  
Try to follow Keith's instructions directly - as he says on one of his pages, at the end of the session if you're not sweating and tired, you're not doing it right.
I'm not asking about what you think I'm asking about.......    Nor do I disagree with what you said, but holding drills as described in the video are separate from trigger pull.


Keith has written about this - more information included here:
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Pistol/Precion%20Shooting/Training%20Material/Keith%20Sanderson%20Dry%20Fire%20Training.pdf 

Eventually, that's what I need to do.  Right now I'm just doing the first part, "holding".
If I can't hold the gun steady, trigger pull is meaningless.
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Post by CR10X on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:08 pm

If I can't hold the gun steady, trigger pull is meaningless.

If you believe that, more discussion is probably not going to help.  Don't keep the gun "steady" keep it aligned.  Trigger pull is the other half of the process.

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Post by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:26 pm

I've watched a few "older" shooters (80ish) that I'd swear had a wobble area of a full 25 yd  timed/rapid target.
Some how they always shot into the low 90s if not better.
Trigger control is critical


Last edited by STEVE SAMELAK on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Post by adminbot1911 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:38 pm

mikemyers wrote:
For only dry-firing (not holding), I get into position, feet, arms, head, etc., grip the gun exactly the same, raise my arm, lower it to where a target ought to be, watch the dot until it gets the most steady, and try to gradually add pressure to the trigger.  
Just a reminder that you should be gradually adding that trigger pressure BEFORE the dot gets where it needs to be, not after.  

Regarding shoulder pain, I have a biceps tendon that is actively trying to escape with my labrum.  Heavy, front-loaded guns as well as firing magnum loads are brutal so I don't do them.  But a 2700 plus a couple EIC matches in a day doesn't cause pain, even given the medical condition.

Also at the peak of my training I was doing 2-3 hour sessions 3 to 4 times a week for almost a full year, and this was with the torn labrum.  A few times some muscle soreness prompted some tiger balm use.  But there should be no weird aches or pains, I mean REAL pains from dry firing.
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Post by SteveT on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:44 pm

Several years ago at a Zins / Moody clinic, one of the shooters had a laser sight. We all took turns holding on a target. Brian Zins did not have the steadiest hold of the group. Several of us that have never been national champion had smaller area of hold.

Most points are lost pulling the trigger (and disturbing the sight alignment). And by "most" I mean "almost all".

Do the laser test, even just holding a laser pointer in your hand. Does the laser dot spend a second or two in the middle of the target? You can shoot groups that small if you start pulling the trigger smoothly and straight back when you see that hold pattern developing.
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Post by dronning on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:50 pm

CR10X wrote:
If I can't hold the gun steady, trigger pull is meaningless.

If you believe that, more discussion is probably not going to help.  Don't keep the gun "steady" keep it aligned.  Trigger pull is the other half of the process.
NO one holds the gun steady!  Everyone has a wobble some are bigger than others.  If you have a wobble that covers the black (8 ring) and you keep the gun aligned and have good trigger control you will score in the mid 90's because your wobble spends more time in the 9, 10 & X rings than in the 8 ring.  You MUST start trigger movement EARLY in the process and TRUST YOUR WOBBLE!
- Dave

By the way arm strength does not necessarily = smaller wobble, you also have to consider your stance AND core strength.
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:25 pm

When I first started this, and picked up the gun with my right hand, it's like what I saw two weeks ago picking up my gun with my left hand.  The only time the dot was over the target was as it was passing by, shaking all over the place, and after a few seconds I had to put it down.  It was "wobble" on steroids.  

Nowadays, things are different.

Just the same, if I hold my gun with my right hand, as I do for Bullseye, and then use my support hand to take some of the weight, and support the gun, it is a world of difference.  The remaining "wobble" stays in the black.  I was hoping that if I could build up my strength in my right hand a little more, I would be able to replicate two hand shooting while keeping my left hand in my pocket.


I assume this will work for any of you.  Take the heaviest gun you have, and hold it out in front of you for several minutes - no need to aim, just hold it until your muscles start to shake all over.  At that moment, trigger control would be the least of your concerns.  Even if you guys can do it, I can't.  My body is telling me to put the gun down NOW.


We're not talking the same thing.  

(.....and what I wrote earlier about the process wasn't correct, as I've learned that as I start to apply pressure to the trigger, it minimizes my wobble, and I pretty much do what you guys suggest.  It's exaggerated, but two months ago I put an Aimpoint 9000sc on my Model 41 and used it at a match.  When my hand literally started to shake, because of the weight, I just put the gun down.  I didn't see much point in shooting with my gun moving around like that.  I'm better now, but not as good as I'd like to be, and when I go to the range and dry-fire for a few minutes with the lead filled magazine and then switch to my mag with ammo, the gun feels SO much more controllable, and the results show it.)
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:28 pm

SteveT wrote:30-60 minutes of steady dry firing means you are raising a 2-3 pound weight 100 times or more. That will make my arm sore. That is generally a good thing to strengthen the muscles and have better endurance in an all day match.....

SteveT already answers the only question I was trying to ask.  I wasn't trying to start a big discussion on anything, just curious about one thing.
I obviously didn't ask my question very well, but at least Steve understood what I was trying to ask.
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Post by Sa-tevp on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:44 pm

The Keith Sanderson holding drills work well for developing shooter/tennis/golf elbow without having to convert a lot of ammo into noise. If you look for some more of his videos you will find one of him discussing the surgery he had to have on his arm a few years after he made his holding drill video.
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Post by mikemyers on Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:23 pm

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8WQofO-6X0

He doesn't say what caused the injury.  It was from back in 2009, when he tore a muscle in his shooting arm.  
Now I'm not sure what to think.
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Post by Allgoodhits on Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:53 pm

My thoughts.

If needed use strength training for muscle development, and cardio for endurance. Don't use your gun as a barbell. I would never want my subconscious to "see" the gun shake or wobble due to fatigue, while I am exercising with a gun.

Holding line drills are good as are holding drills in general. IMO, when the holding drills duration is such that the wobble or shake, causes the sights or dot to move outside of the desired aiming area, it is time to quit that session. My subconscious may not be able to differentiate that a shaking gun/sights is OK if exercising, but not ok when shooting. I don't want to see or experience a shaking, or trembling gun caused by exercising with it. Use a barbell or something else for that.

Dryfire. For me it is multiple sessions per day, with duration of each no more than 10 - 20 minutes, or some times less. I dry fire until, I have "called" ten shots as good as I possibly can call them, and they were where I want them to be. I will amend that as need to make certain, that there are two in a row at the end, which were as good as I can make and call them. I feel that this leaves me ending each session with positive image of what I want to happen. Some times those 10 good ones happen in 13-15 shots, some times it is 20. Some times, I abort the session, because, I find that I can't keep my focus on task at hand. My objective is to make those ten best shots, with only ten shots. I've not done it yet.
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Post by Vociferous on Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:25 am

I enjoy the routine. I get up, make coffee, stretch. The Cat knows what happens next; runs into the dry fire room, ready for play time. I get my box and pistol all ready. Make the bed; the cat plays with the sheets. I dry fire for 30 minutes. followed by wrist rollers, gyroball and wieght training. I do this every day before work. Willie Trowell, several years ago, suggested, for strength training, to put a 5 pound angle wrap weight on my wrist while dry firing. Been doing it ever since.

At Perry this year, I bought a Mantis X. This is a Bluetooth devise that you stick on your gun and it tells you how much movement you have before, during and after the trigger break. I really only pay attention to the movement during the trigger break. This is a useful gadget because it does provide feedback i'm not getting from eyes to brain. It also gives a score, and I notice that my score does go down near the end of my session. I'm working on that.

Dry firing does not replace the need for live fire sessions, for me at least. But, it does allow me to train and get stronger, doing what it is I want to do, to get stronger for.
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Post by CR10X on Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:55 am

It also gives a score, and I notice that my score does go down near the end of my session. I'm working on that.

When training and developing new techniques or working on specific items, there is a bell curve of "successful completions".  That's the reason for that part of my original statement. (And it applies to almost everything when we are trying to improve.) 

When we start working on something (training); the success rate may be low, then gradually increase as we become more aware of the process needed, adjust the process, understand what to focus on, etc.  The rate of success will eventually (hopefully) peak near 100 percent for a time, then will gradually start to decrease (fatigue, loss of focus, strain, bored, hungry, etc.)  That's when the session should end.  If you have more time, move to another area of training.

Really good technical coaches watch for this during training sessions in just about every sport.  Coaches help find the right drills / training, actually coach until the correct technique, move, response, etc. is understood, then continue to watch until they see the peak success completion reached and begin to drop off.  That's when they move to another training area, drill, etc.  As training sessions continue, the peak should occur quicker and be sustained longer. but should not extend past the point where focus, fatigue or concentration begins to degrade the success rate.  

Or the short version:  As long as you're shooting well, keep shooting. 

As for holding drills to build strength and "steadiness", a routine of active exercise with just some "holding" training will produce better results, especially if one is feeling tired or strained during a match.  Build the muscles and endurance actively with exercise, train the mind to see the wobble and help it get smaller to get "steady".  You can't (well I couldn't) do that trying to hold a weight (or heavy gun) out there too long.  The brain is just learning to see more wobble and the body is not getting a chance to respond like it would with a lighter weight (gun).  John Bicker posted a list of exercises not too long ago.

CR


Last edited by CR10X on Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by mikemyers on Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:54 pm

I can't find it now, but somebody posted about using a 5# ankle weight on their wrist.  That got me to wondering about what I've been doing.

Some useless but interesting information:

  • My 1911 with Aimpoint sight, no magazine, weighs 45.5 ounces, 2.8 pounds.
  • My magazine with 5 rounds loaded weighs 5.4 ounces, 0.4 pounds.
  • My lead filled magazine weighs 13.7 ounces, 0.9 pounds.


So, for comparison:

  • live firing with a loaded magazine, I'm holding  3.2 pounds.
  • dry-firing / holding, I'm holding 3.7 pounds.


As for how long to hold, if I skip Keith Sanderson's recommendations completely, and just think of what you guys have posted here, I can easily imagine it taking me up to 10 seconds to slow-fire one round.  I have changed my practice app settings for dry fire to give me 10 seconds "work" time to fire one round, and then 45 seconds to rest between rounds.  This will repeat 20 times for one "session".  That more or less matches what I sometimes do at the range, load one round at a time, carefully take one shot, lower gun, reload, and repeat, until I have fired 20 rounds at one target.  The group I end up with tells me much of what I want to know.  Scoring it gives me a rough idea of how I would be doing at a match.

My goal is to keep holes in the black on a B-8 target at 25 yards.
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Post by lablover on Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:10 pm

Want to improve your 25 yard shots?  Start shooting at 50 yards.  Worked for me
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