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Starting from scratch again - and need some detailed grip coaching for the left hand

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Ray Bersch
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Starting from scratch again - and need some detailed grip coaching for the left hand Empty Starting from scratch again - and need some detailed grip coaching for the left hand

Post by adminbot1911 10/22/2019, 7:57 am

After a lot of consideration, I'm having labrum surgery on my shooting shoulder which will include a biceps tenodesis (relocation and anchoring).  Talking with competitors that have done this before, I expect to be out of commission for a long time.

I'm switching to left handed, at least temporarily.  My left eye is 20/13 and non astigmatic unlike my right which is a plus.  But I'm building my left hand grip and squeeze from scratch.  The mental memory is there, but the muscle memory is not. Over the years, I've had coaches provide feedback on my stance and gear and such, but never on my grip.  As I embark on months of right-shoulder rehabilitation and left-handed dry fire, I was hoping to have some stakes in the ground, some constants, about the grip.  Most specifically where the pressure is.

I've watched all of the videos on grip and such but I'm looking for more.  You wrap your fingers around and have a solid hold on the pistol... okay, but how much pressure is on which fingers?  Which joints?  How much on the thumbprint?  How much on the base of the thumb?  How much on the heel?  Do you "wedge" the grip in behind the fat of the fingers or do you squeeze straight front to back?

Understanding that there is some pedantry in a topic of this nature, I'm open to all of it.  I also understand that different people do different things different ways.  I'm open to that too.  

Palm is medium sized with slightly above average thickness and meat.  Fingers maybe a hair shorter than average but not thin.
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Post by Ray Bersch 10/22/2019, 12:50 pm

Funny, I am considering the same thing due to recent right arm injury - the concept is the same just the muscles are different.  My opinion is to seek out and follow Brian Zins advice on grip - again, same thing right or left and use whichever eye works best.  Watch his videos, attend a seminar. Good luck
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Post by Aprilian 10/22/2019, 1:01 pm

How did you develop your right hand grip?   What worked for your right should work for your left (unless shooting cross-dominate eye).  My suggestion is (pre surgery) you grip with the right and write down answers FOR YOU to your questions above.  That will give you info on how you can get to the same grip as you have on the right.   it may also help post surgery when you are ready to go back to right handed.
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Post by Jon Eulette 10/22/2019, 1:15 pm

Left is no different than the right. I've shot 2650 right handed and 2600 left handed. Use my right dominant eye for both hands; head position slightly different. Using weak hand you will actually pay more attention because its not as natural.
Jon
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Post by adminbot1911 10/22/2019, 8:09 pm

Aprilian wrote:How did you develop your right hand grip?   What worked for your right should work for your left (unless shooting cross-dominate eye).  My suggestion is (pre surgery) you grip with the right and write down answers FOR YOU to your questions above.  That will give you info on how you can get to the same grip as you have on the right.   it may also help post surgery when you are ready to go back to right handed.

I'm sorry if I wasn't quite clear. I'm not looking to duplicate my right hand grip, which I consider the weakest part of my physical shooting game. 

As I indicated in my post, I've watched the videos. They don't have the level of detail that I'm looking for. High grip, trigger on the first knuckle groove, sights naturally fall into alignment at arm's length, done. 

Now, am I squeezing front to rear with non trigger fingers? Or is there any side to side action? Should the middle finger be hugged up on the trigger guard? Where behind the hand should the majority of the weight lay, base of the thumb or palm? 

I hope this helps where I'm trying to go.
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Post by Aprilian 10/23/2019, 10:17 am

Andrew,  My suggestion would be to start with Ed Hall then part 1 and 2 here  Ed Hall articles  yes they are basic, but Ed (and Cecil too) has the best explanations.
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Post by PhotoEscape 10/23/2019, 10:56 am

Maybe this has answer for you, Andrew:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXWoJ2arPuI&list=PL1wX0N678rkKIUoQDHlQAjJglFLk6j6X9&index=1

AP
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Post by adminbot1911 10/24/2019, 2:51 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Left is no different than the right. I've shot 2650 right handed and 2600 left handed. Use my right dominant eye for both hands; head position slightly different. Using weak hand you will actually pay more attention because its not as natural.
Jon
Agreed on the attention part which is why it's so important for me to get this right.  Your right hand grip was sound and therefore worth duplicating.  Only recently I've discovered that thumb and pinky pressure are bad.  I tend to increase my total grip pressure as I squeeze the trigger which I have no idea which is good or bad.  I wedge the grip into my hand between the V of the palm and the second set of knuckles which I have no idea if I should be doing or not.  I have a ton of middle finger pressure on the trigger guard which I don't know if is good or bad.  I get lone uncalled flyers I indicate in my avatars and am certain they are because of grip because ever single other part of my routine is identical.  Through luck and force of will and good sight picture I'm able to win 30 round matches from time to time but I'm not even close to competing in a marathon match like a 2700.  I have too many unexplained bad shots and I am certain they are grip related.

Again, I'm trying not to learn the wrong way again which I'm convinced will happen if I'm left to my own devices with no feedback other than sight picture on a blank wall.  Sight picture is easy, grip is complicated, there are so many different ways you can squeeze and smush different joints and appendages into different parts of a firearm that I'm looking for some really basic input on who smushes what where so I know where pressure should normally be applied.
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Post by adminbot1911 10/24/2019, 2:51 pm

Aprilian wrote:Andrew,  My suggestion would be to start with Ed Hall then part 1 and 2 here  Ed Hall articles  yes they are basic, but Ed (and Cecil too) has the best explanations.
Good input, hadn't read those, thank you.
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Post by adminbot1911 10/24/2019, 3:00 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:Maybe this has answer for you, Andrew:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXWoJ2arPuI&list=PL1wX0N678rkKIUoQDHlQAjJglFLk6j6X9&index=1

AP
This and the gunny's other videos are where I started, but my main questions are about amounts of pressure in different parts of the hand, which he doesn't seem to address in any of his videos or articles.
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Post by adminbot1911 10/25/2019, 9:11 am

This is what I was looking for.  Thanks to Aprilian for the share.



This is the second in a series in the explanation of shooting fundamentals.

GRIP

Gripping the pistol correctly and consistently is essential for shooting groups. Orthopaedic grips fitted to your hand will aid in the consistency necessary every time you grasp the pistol. That is your main objective: to grasp the same way every time. The gun should feel comfortable in your hand. The trigger finger should be able to position itself on the trigger so that it can be able to press it firmly straight back without rubbing against the side of the grip.

Here is a step by step method to grasp the pistol:

1. Pick up the pistol with your non-shooting hand and place it firmly in your shooting hand.

2. The pistol is seated high and deep into the web of the hand (that fleshy area between the base of the thumb and index finger). You are trying to make the pistol barrel a natural straight line extension of your arm. If a string traveled from the muzzle to your eye, it would follow a line along the inner portion of your arm. The mainspring housing (or that area of the grips) should catch the meaty portion of your palm below the base of the thumb.

3. The thumb itself is loose and relaxed along the thumb rest (if you have one).

4. The primary gripping pressure is produced by the middle finger.

5. Secondary pressure is provided by the third finger. Also, this finger can produce tiny changes in front sight elevation by increasing/decreasing pressure.

6. The little finger is loose and not exerting any noticeable pressure. Essentially, it is just along for the ride. Be careful...this finger has a lot of leverage, pressure while shooting will bring the muzzle down.

7. The fingertips do not exert pressure on the pistol grip. They are part of the total "package", along with the thumb and little finger, that form the entire grip and help to control the gun in recoil, but are not consciously applying pressure as do the middle and third fingers. If you "let go" with the thumb, little finger, trigger finger and finger tips..the gun should still be held firmly by the middle sections of your middle and third fingers pressing straight back into the lower palm of your hand.

8. The trigger finger must not be in contact with the grip at all.

The trigger finger must be able to flex at the middle knuckle without moving the pistol or varying the pressure of any of the other fingers. This is important and demands a lot of practice. You must be able to pull the trigger without moving the other fingers. The hand is not meant to work this way, so you must train to overcome this tendency.

Total grip pressure is firm but not to the point where your hand starts to shake. Keep the wrist locked. A firm grip and locked wrist have much less play from left to right. If your finger nails are totally white, you are using too much pressure. If you can see a deep impression of the grips in the flesh of your hand, you are overgripping, back off a little (except maybe in hardball rapid fire). Try to keep a consistency in the amount of pressure you use to grip the gun throughout the entire shot process. Inconsistency will definitely change your point of impact.

Spend time working on your application of a good grip. Learn how to easily and consistently acquire it...like putting on a well worn glove. If the grip doesn't quite feel right, start over. Some shooters put memory markers on the grips to let them know that they are holding correctly.

If you feel you lack grip strength, do some exercises with a hard rubber ball. Dumbbell wrist curl exercises working both the inner and top of the forearm will strengthen the finger flexor tendons. Take a single sheet of a newspaper and using just your fingers, wad it up into a tight ball. Make sure you stretch your "tennis elbow" ligament.

Between shots in slow fire, relax your grip (without letting go) to let blood rejuvenate the hand and fingers.

Let me end by repeating:

1. A firm grip gives you a sense of controlling recoil.

2. The repeatability of the way you grasp the gun will give you tighter groups.

3. The trigger finger and nothing else tightens to squeeze the trigger.

I'll post again in a few days to discuss Breathing.

Ron Steinbrecher



https://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/ronsfunds.html#grip
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Post by DA/SA 10/25/2019, 10:06 am

I started to post this a day ago and got tied up.

I keep a bit of pressure at the base of the thumb, but keep the upper part of my thumb curled out slightly away from the grip. Pressure on the second and third finger with finger tips not pressing against the grip. Little finger away from the front strap.
Starting from scratch again - and need some detailed grip coaching for the left hand G24oypVl

Starting from scratch again - and need some detailed grip coaching for the left hand 5MRcuYLl

I relax the gripping pressure slightly for .22, but probably shouldn't.

Dunno how "correct" that is, but it works pretty well for me! 

If I start shooting 9's at 6:00 it's a reminder that my little finger is contacting the grip. Shooting left a bit, and my thumb is curled in a bit...
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