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New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?

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New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  Empty New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?

Post by Zepp on 6/22/2020, 2:30 pm

Does anyone have any experience with the new USA built Sig Sauer P210 Target?

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Post by zanemoseley on 6/22/2020, 4:39 pm

I've got a new Standard that I put a red dot on. Don't spend the cash on the Target unless you really want the adjustable rear sight, only other differnece is the grips which most prefer the smaller grips and front slide serrations. I'm impressed with the pistol but haven't done any accuracy testing. To me it's too light to consider for actual bullseye use but is a very nice 9mm.

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Post by bpettet on 6/22/2020, 10:11 pm

I believe they are on the service pistol list.  I haven't shot one yet but I'm a big fan of the older Swiss P210's.

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Post by radjag on 6/23/2020, 6:42 am

Zepp. Do a search for Sig P210. There have been long threads recently.

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Post by Kp321 on 6/23/2020, 8:51 am

I bought the target model, love the grips!  The trigger is great but is so different than a 1911 trigger it takes some getting used to. 
I plan to use mine for informal bullseye so put a red dot on it. Still working on loads, it shoots everything I have put through it but have not found that perfect load. My benchmark is a Smith 52, still have not found a load that equals it. Close, but always two or three points behind.

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Post by smsnyder on 6/23/2020, 11:07 am

YES i have one and its OUTSTANDING. Extremly accurate and super nice trigger. About 3 1/2 pounds. I have about 1000 rounds through it and it never failed. Love the target grips and sights. ALL QUALITY.

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Post by radjag on 6/23/2020, 8:03 pm

As I mentioned on the other thread, the question is, what do you intend to use it for?

As standard the triggers are generally too light for CMP EIC Service Pistol, but the replacement of the trigger return spring can usually fix that. I found the sights difficult, but there are narrower/wider replacement front sights available (Dawson Precision).

Using it as a CF gun in Bullseye is fine, but then the mounting of a red dot is problematic. There are mounts for Vortex Venom style micro red dots using the Target sight cuts in the slide(BME?), no doubt there are other options.

They are fine guns, well made and quite accurate, but the OEM barrel twist calls for high velocity match 115 ammo if you want to see tight groups, the gun is light and therefore quite snappy with such ammo.

IMHO, a very nice gun for plinking, but there are much better alternatives out there for competition.

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Post by zanemoseley on 6/23/2020, 9:14 pm

Here's mine with a Vortex Venom, the mount was an EGW I believe. Totally different rear sight cuts on the standard and target model, there's a dot mount for the target made by someone else.

New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  02182011

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Post by tovaert on 6/24/2020, 8:15 am

I replaced the trigger return spring and installing a heavier sear spring. I also disassembled the hammer block assembly (easy) and polished the sear surfaces. It has user-adjustable sear engagement, a simple and well-designed feature. My trigger is now 2-stage...about 2-1/2# first stage, then a wall, then a 1-1/2# break. It's more like my Geissele HS SR trigger. It will lift a 4# weight. I also re-designed/machined the guide rod so that you can capture/uncapture and install a variety of recoil springs. My spring of choice is the 16# flatwire for the CZ P-01 sold by Cajun Gun Works. This stiffens the lockup considerably over the factory (~11#) recoil spring. Robert Burke (The Sig Armorer) in Texas has a better front sight than the stock fiber optic model...he installed mine. It is accurate (for a $1500 pistol), and with the 1:10 twist barrel it will group nicely with 147 gr XTPs of Zero JHPs, running about 900-950 fps MV. The recoil impulse is almost identical to my SA 1991A1 CF pistol shooting 200 CSWCs at 750 fps. My walnut grips are from Grips4U.net. The cheap plastic pic rail is my install (for a MantisX), fixed with 3M VHB double-sided foam tape...legal for CMP EIC. Armory Craft sells a red dot base for the Target model. It fits in place of the rear sight.
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Post by tovaert on 6/24/2020, 8:32 am

The only weakness in the P210A is the factory (captured) POS guide rod. Breaks easily. Yet so easy to re-design. Sig dropped the ball on this one. Here's my re-designed version with 3 different springs (factory (~11#), Sig P938 (~13#), and CZ P-01 (~16#)). The small button head machine screw is removed after installing the slide, the re-installed to capture the guide rod before disassembly.
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Post by Saladman on 7/19/2020, 12:48 pm

How exactly does the stock P210 guide rod break, and what is yours doing differently?  What does your upgrade cost?

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Post by tovaert on 7/20/2020, 10:13 am

Saladman wrote:How exactly does the stock P210 guide rod break, and what is yours doing differently?  What does your upgrade cost?
The small button that retains the spring appears to be swaged onto the muzzle end of the rod. For some reason, cycling causes stress on the button. Perhaps the rod is not long enough and the slide moves the sliding disc washer too far...and that then impacts the button? Repeated impact would then cause the button to break off. Other Swiss/German Sig guide rod designs had the button and rod machined as one piece, which was then pinned to the aft end of the rod (the "pivot"), which was machined as a separate part. I'm sure that design is better than what Sig installed in the P210A, but IMHO it is not the best design. There is also this one: https://zahal.org/product/sig-sauer-p210-a-target-9mm-recoil-reduction-spring-rod-by-dpm-systems/. They sold this before testing it in a P210A (I know this because I bought one). However, the early ones they sold would not fit in the P210A. DPM Systems is in Greece, and they were not able to get an actual P210A to measure...they tried to figure it out by disassembling/measuring one at Shot Show (go figure). So I sent them photos and dimensions, and they re-designed it. A very nice guy at DPM customer service in Greece (Pan) then sent me a free DPM P210A recoil rod system, based on my design suggestions. Their design, however, is not captured. I don't really know how well it would work in my P210A as I have not tried it yet, but it looks great dimension-wise, it fits, and...there is no button to break off! Another re-design example, made in Germany, but *only* for Swiss/German pistols (it will not fit the P210A): http://www.pistolenspezialist.de/epages/62174389.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62174389/Products/442. The Swiss/German P210 pistol was designed differently. The P210 guide rod is significantly longer than the rod in the P210A. A longer rod facilitates round wire springs, as you can see on that web page. However, the P210A really needs flatwire springs in the original (factory) configuration. So my guide rod design is similar, and consists of three changes to the factory P210A guide rod. First, the rod itself is slightly longer. This insures that the rod will extend slightly further away from the muzzle end of the sliding disc washer, into the cutout hole in the slide. Second, it is slightly smaller in diameter, which enables it to use the other (heavier) flatwire springs shown in the photo above. My pistol with 147 gr handloads shoots really well with the 16# CGW spring. Third, my guide rod is captured using a small button head retaining screw (see photo), but you only retain it when you want to assemble/disassemble the pistol. When firing, you lock the slide back, then remove (and store) the screw. So in my design, you fire it in an uncaptured configuration. I can easily have some more made, but my gunsmith/machinist says I need to have a lot of 10 or more to keep the price down. I was thinking of selling a "kit" like the "www.pistolenspezialist.de" does...a guide rod, retaining screw, sliding disc washer, and three different springs, but the C-19 crap and such sidelined the project. I started working on this last fall & winter after my factory guide rod broke, and after Sig displayed no interest in *fixing* their crappy design problem...as a fun winter project. My new rod design now has probably 2000+ rounds on it, with no problems whatsoever. I also changed the sear spring (in the hammer bloc assembly), and trigger return spring (inside the trigger shoe), gave it a "homemade" trigger job (polishing internals and such), to make it a smooth two-stage trigger at 4# trigger pull weight for CMP EIC matches. Now I'm just trying to keep 20 shots on a repair center at 50 yards with the stock sights. That has been a most frustrating undertaking to say the least!

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Post by Orpanaut on 7/20/2020, 7:00 pm

Tovaert, have you shot your P210 from a rest to get an idea of how well it can group? And have you tested the pistol with lighter bullets?

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Post by smsnyder on 7/20/2020, 7:09 pm

Is this for the new model P210 Target made in the USA? Anyone make a thumb rest for the P210 Target.  I love this pistol. Probably the finest pistol next to the Pardini 22.

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Post by tovaert on 7/22/2020, 9:04 am

Orpanaut wrote:Tovaert, have you shot your P210 from a rest to get an idea of how well it can group?  And have you tested the pistol with lighter bullets?
Yes...I own a Ransom Rest, and our range (Bristol, IN) has a welded steel rest stand buried in concrete. It's pretty solid. I've tested it at 50 and produced 1-1/2" to 2" groups, with 147gr XTPs, and a 16# CGW spring. Ransom make grips that fit over the factory Sig wooden grip panels, and a set that grips the frame. I own both types of grips, though I have not had a chance to test the frame grips. I ran one test last Fall with 115 gr XTPs. Groups were better with 147 gr XTPs (basically, a BTHP bullet), which was not surprising to me since it has a 1:10 twist barrel. I aim for about 950 fps. I like how it shoots too. The Ransom Rest is really picky about how you grip the pistol and actuate the trigger. I'm still learning...

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Post by Orpanaut on 7/22/2020, 12:13 pm

Thanks for the information.

It's interesting that SIG chose to use a fast twist barrel when most 9mm target pistols use a slow twist for the 115 grain bullets.

I hope that SIG will eventually release a version that's more optics-friendly, preferably with some sort of frame mount. Or they could use the system found on the M17 and the P320 X-5 where the slide comes cut for a micro red dot.

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Post by radjag on 7/22/2020, 12:42 pm

Interesting. I tried some 147 loads, but my offhand groups were inferior to Elite 115 factory ammo. The gun is quite light and very snappy with that 115 hv ammo. So I decided it is not my favourite for EIC Service Pistol. I have not tried it on a RR, so I bow to Tim's more careful testing. I must try again with 147, but, for me, the P210 is just a gun for fun anyhow.

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Post by tovaert on 7/22/2020, 1:53 pm

Orpanaut wrote:Thanks for the information.

It's interesting that SIG chose to use a fast twist barrel when most 9mm target pistols use a slow twist for the 115 grain bullets.

I hope that SIG will eventually release a version that's more optics-friendly, preferably with some sort of frame mount.  Or they could use the system found on the M17 and the P320 X-5 where the slide comes cut for a micro red dot.  
Both Armory Craft and EGW have a dot mounting plate. Armory Craft's is for the Target model (you remove the rear sight adjusting screw and rear sight) and EGW's (I believe) is for the Standard's dovetail rear sight. Armory Craft also has a thin plate adapter so you can mount the new Trijicon red dot.

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Post by tovaert on 7/22/2020, 2:09 pm

radjag wrote:Interesting. I tried some 147 loads, but my offhand groups were inferior to Elite 115 factory ammo. The gun is quite light and very snappy with that 115 hv ammo. So I decided it is not my favourite for EIC Service Pistol. I have not tried it on a RR, so I bow to Tim's more careful testing. I must try again with 147, but, for me, the P210 is just a gun for fun anyhow.
I'll try to get some of that ammo for the RR, since a lot of folks like it. I get overwhelmed thinking about all of the handload possibilities, and I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, since RR testing is somewhat of an art when you are looking for that 1-1/2" 50 yard pistol/ammo combo. I like the way mine shoots with the heavier spring, 147 gr bullets, new trigger setup, and thinner aftermarket walnut grips. Recoil is about the same as my SA 1911A1 shooting 185 gr JHPs. I might step the 147's up to 1000 fps MV. I tested that load late last Fall and it grouped well at the time, but weather crept up and I never practiced with it outdoors.

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Post by Orpanaut on 7/22/2020, 7:34 pm

Regarding weight (unloaded):

SA XD(M) 9mm 5.25 = 29 oz
Beretta 92FS = 34 oz
SIG P210 Target = 37 oz
SA Range Officer = 40 oz

Granted, the Beretta pistols tricked out for competition are probably closer to 39 ounces, but it still doesn't look like the P210 is particularly light.

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Post by radjag on 7/22/2020, 8:12 pm

Interesting. Happened to have my guns handy and a digital postal scale on my desk.

My SIG P210 Target with iron sights and slim wood grips weighs 34oz (no magazine).

My SIG 1911 9mm Tac-ops with iron sights weighs 39oz (no magazine). I shot that today with some 115JHP over 5.0 Power Pistol and it was very harsh - didn't enjoy it. And the Novak fully adjustable rear sight I put on that gun seems to have a mind of its own when I try to dial it in every time I go to a different range - quite annoying!

I haven't shot the P210 for a while. I just realised I have some 147 JHP over 4.3/4.5/4.7 of Power Pistol. I will shoot them and (if I can get my chrono working) will report back again with offhand groups and velocities. 

Maybe my memory is playing tricks - again!

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Post by tovaert on 7/23/2020, 9:33 am

P210A with thin wood grips + mag (w5 rounds of 147 gr ammo) = 40.2 oz
SA 1911A1 + clark aluminum rail + Bushnell dot + mag (w5 rounds of 185 gr ammo) = 48.2 oz
'61 Colt NM + mag (w5 rounds of 185 gr ammo) = 41.0 oz

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Post by Fotomaniac on 7/23/2020, 9:39 am

I wish they would make a plate to mount an Aimpoint Micro dot! Probably the MOST used on the line after the Ultradot. Oh well

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Post by zanemoseley on 7/23/2020, 10:01 am

The P210A is a great value, they made it as a quality throwback to the original while making it affordable for people not willing to drop $3k on an original. Any decent machinist/smith could make a plate that fits in either model's dovetail and fit an Aimpoint Micro. You might even talk BME into making them. I don't see Sig ever making a P210 that's optics ready, due to the low magazine capacity it won't be serious contender for the run and gun guys and our market is far too small for them to make us something.

If anything I would like to see a custom full rail that would accommodate a 9000SC. That would make the pistol far less snappy and get it up to a weight like a wadcutter 1911.

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Post by JKR on 7/23/2020, 10:43 am

Could a rail for a tube style sight be mounted to the slide like we do with our 1911s? Or would ejection be an issue?
JKR

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