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New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?

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New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 Empty New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?

Post by Zepp on 6/22/2020, 2:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Does anyone have any experience with the new USA built Sig Sauer P210 Target?

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Post by radjag on 7/23/2020, 11:16 am

I have to say that the P210 is a much more stylish gun than a 1911. It has a certain svelte molding of the slide which really would be ruined by adding a full rail. No doubt the frame could be drilled for a bridge type mount (sorry, I tried a Les Baer Wad Gun and I don't like those mounts at all!). But it would be like putting a roof rack on a Ferrari!

Whilst I have found that my eyes don't like the micro reflex (Vortex Venom, etc.) sights, I do think that they suit this gun much better.

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Post by JKR on 7/23/2020, 11:54 am

Do we not ruin the lines of John Browning’s beautiful creation in the name of accuracy by doing this very thing? If the Sig is truly a worthy target gun, wouldn’t you rather have a nice, round, concentric sight picture, as opposed to some goofy TV screen looking outfit teetering on the rear dovetail?
JKR

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Post by Wobbley on 7/23/2020, 2:35 pm

radjag wrote:But it would be like putting a roof rack on a Ferrari!
Some idiot has done that...
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 Ae837b10
Wobbley
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Post by bpettet on 7/23/2020, 10:39 pm

A roof rack on a F40...and it's not even a nice bike.

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Post by Orpanaut on 7/24/2020, 11:39 am

SIG already makes a plate system for the P320 X-5 that makes it easy to switch between iron sights and a dot. That's what I would like to see on the P210. That way, you could swap back and forth with minimal need to re-zero.

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Post by radjag on 7/28/2020, 9:12 pm

I got around to testing my 147 reloads with the P210 over my chrono at the end of last week on a 25 yard range.

As Tim Ovaert has already stated, the P210 likes 147JHP bullets. I had three recipes to test, all with ZERO 147 JHP's over Power Pistol powder in Winchester White Box (once fired range brass) with CCI Small Pistol Primers (I think!). First the chrono data:-
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 9mm14710
These data series correspond to these groups that were shot slow fire offhand at 25 yards on TF/RF targets (that was what I had with me).
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 9mm14711
I did not have time to run groups at 50 yards or do any full NMC's on that day. 

But clearly the softer 4.3PP loads produced the best groups and were definitely the most pleasant to shoot. Only produced 913fps, so maybe 4.4 grains of PP is the sweet spot. Or maybe another powder will be even better - I will do further trials as soon as my XL650 is back in working order (long story!).

Today I had a chance to do a "real world" Service Pistol trial - Sorry, on my local range using NRA 50ft targets at 45ft.
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 20200711
The 4.3PP load was definitely much easier to shoot TF/RF. I did not even bother trying the 4.7PP load after the first SF card, it is too harsh for me.

The scores are not great, particularly the second SF with the 4.5PP load (not the ammo at fault!), I kind of improved a bit as the 900 progressed (SF from L to R across the top, then TF + RF below, then the other two TF and finally the other two RF). But certainly good enough to produce a reasonable showing in a CMP EIC Service Pistol match.

My P210 has the standard SIG rear target sight, a narrow front sight from Dawson, a slim wood grip, the trigger is at Service Pistol weight. Although I did notice that the pull was quite inconsistent during the TF/RF strings which led to me releasing a few shots a bit before I was expecting.

I now need to do a similarly thorough evaluation of my 1911 9mm (and a couple of other options) before I decide which gun I will use for the next Service Pistol event. But I'm pleasantly surprised with the P210, it performed better than I expected. Good!

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New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 Empty P210A

Post by tovaert on 7/31/2020, 12:03 pm

When I get a chance in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to disassemble the hammer bloc assembly and measure the specifics (wire diameter, ID/OD, #coils, etc.) of my (new) heavier sear spring. I did not install it, but I know it was "fashioned" from another small Sig spring. Then I'll order a bunch of them along with a few more trigger return springs that produce the nicer 2-stage 4# pull that I have now. With the heavier (than factory) sear spring, you can use a somewhat lighter trigger return spring and still maintain 4#, this...with quite a bit less sear engagement. I'll put together a detailed instruction file (as I did before), and post the link.

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New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 Empty Revision 2: Installation of Trigger Return and Sear Springs, Sig P210A

Post by tovaert on 8/16/2020, 1:40 pm

I've completed a new (Revision 2) instruction guide for swapping out both the trigger return spring and the sear spring, on the Sig P210A (Target or Standard). Recall this "experiment" was aimed at increasing the trigger pull weight to 4# for EIC competition, without simply winding up the mainspring using the adjustable barrel nut. In my first iteration, I used a trigger return spring that was a bit to strong. This caused one to pull through the release with little to no sear "feel" when the sear adjustment pin was set for a ~4# pull weight. Since then I've experimented with a slightly lighter trigger return spring, in conjunction with a slightly heavier sear spring. To me this is much more desirable, as this combination produces a two-stage trigger with a distinct "wall" followed by a crisp release (similar to my Geissele HS match rifle trigger). The spring specifications are towards the end of the file, and I have some available (see instructions). Of course, one could also proceed in the reverse direction, and decrease the factory trigger pull weight (as well as change trigger feel and sear engagement), towards the 2.5# CF weight limit. It seems the factory triggers are in the 3 to 3.5# pull weight vicinity. I have not experimented with lighter springs, however, the necessary dimensions and specifications for the trigger return and sear springs can be garnered from the supplier website (noted in the instructions). Any questions or comments, feel free to message me. Here it is:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x5oy76nzffp4ewl/installing_trigger_return_sear_springs_p210a_rev2.pdf?dl=0

tovaert

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Post by Orpanaut on 10/25/2020, 10:09 am

I took the plunge and bought a 210A Target of my own. My plan is to use it for CMP matches, so dot mounting isn't a concern, but I will need to do some trigger work to get a legal 4# pull. Some notes:

1) Out of the box, my trigger would lift 4# on an NRA trigger weight tester. I was pleasantly surprised and thought that I might be match-ready with everything stock. Now that I've shot and dry fired it a bit, my 210A's trigger is down closer to 3.5 pounds. I will try to follow Tovaert's instructions for trigger adjustment.

2) Sight black neutralized the fiber optic rod in the front sight. I think it should be good to go now.

3) Magazines are expensive: about $50 from most sources. The cheapest source I've found is Tombstone Tactical in Arizona, which has them for $40.68 plus shipping. The target model mags have an extended steel baseplate which the "Legend" mags don't, to reach below the bottom of the target-style grips.

4) I replaced the original grips with checkered micarta ones from Armory Craft. They are heavier and "grippier" than stock, and while they still have palm swells they're smaller than those on the stock grips.

5) The 210A does feel a little under-sprung. Although recoil with factory ammo is snappier than expected, the pistol runs 100% with my reduced hand loads for the short line and I feel confident that it will deliver all the timed and rapid fire points that my trigger control allows.

I doubt that I will have a chance to shoot at 50 yards until next spring so it's going to be a long winter.

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Post by tovaert on 10/26/2020, 5:56 pm

Armory Craft sells an adapter for a red dot sight. It installs in place of the rear sight. 

Jon Eulette has also recently asked for folks who would be interested in purchasing a slide-mounted rail. I'm on that list.

The problem with the pistol being under-sprung can be fixed with a new guide rod, which I have also re-designed, manufactured, and used in my P210A, for over 2000 rounds now. This re-design enables the use of three different commercially-available flatwire recoil springs: factory P210A (10.5#), Sig P938 factory (13.5#), and the Cajun Gun Works (16#) CZ P-01 spring. All three fit perfectly. I like the heavier P-01 CZ spring. Works great...and tightens lockup. I only shoot 147 gr bullets, at about 900 fps MV. Soft shooting and accurate. Forget anything other than flatwire springs in the P210A...there isn't enough room for conventional springs (old Swiss/German P210's had much longer guide rods). If there is enough interest, I can make more, minimum group of 10, unless someone in this business might want make and distribute them. My re-design eliminates the problem with tip breakage, which is common with the crappy factory captured rod. See photo. You capture it with a small screw for removal/attachment of the slide, then remove the screw during firing. Just finger-tighten...no need for tools.
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New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 Attachment
New_Guide_Rod_Springs.JPG You don't have permission to download attachments.(120 Kb) Downloaded 6 times

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Post by radjag on 10/26/2020, 6:52 pm

Tim.

I will take one if you do make more please.

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Post by tovaert on 10/26/2020, 7:06 pm

radjag wrote:Tim.

I will take one if you do make more please.
...added to the list.

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Post by Wlw145s on 10/27/2020, 12:08 pm

Please add me to the list. Also, would like a trigger and sear spring from your 4# instructions if you still have some left. New to forum and haven’t figured out how to PM yet. Smile

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Post by tovaert on 10/28/2020, 8:19 am

Wlw145s wrote:Please add me to the list. Also, would like a trigger and sear spring from your 4# instructions if you still have some left. New to forum and haven’t figured out how to PM yet. Smile
Message me your contact information. Click on the "Messages" tab above, then "New PM" and send it to tovaert.

tovaert

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Post by radjag on 10/28/2020, 12:49 pm

I just received a free replacement recoil spring guide assembly from SIG USA (after repeated phone/email and a wait of several weeks). The little retainer at the front end came off and disappeared (seems to be a common fault).

Without the retainer it is a serious PITA to get the assembly off and then back on the barrel for cleaning.
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 P210_r10
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 P210_g10

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Post by tovaert on 10/28/2020, 8:44 pm

radjag wrote:I just received a free replacement recoil spring guide assembly from SIG USA (after repeated phone/email and a wait of several weeks). The little retainer at the front end came off and disappeared (seems to be a common fault).

Without the retainer it is a serious PITA to get the assembly off and then back on the barrel for cleaning.
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 P210_r10
New Model Sig Sauer P210 Target ?  - Page 2 P210_g10
I got a replacement, then chucked it in a lathe and used a file to turn down the OD of that swaged button on the muzzle end. Naturally, after a few minutes, the sliding washer and spring were free. I continued to polish it down until the muzzle end of the rod was about 0.001" smaller in diameter than the guide rod itself. Believe it or not, that last 1/8" on the front of the rod STILL broke off after a couple hundred rounds! That's when I decided to make my own design. 

Some people use it with the last 1/8" missing...I would highly recommend against doing that. Not only can you damage the flat spring assembling it, but imagine if it jams?

tovaert

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Post by radjag on 10/28/2020, 8:51 pm

[size=16][i]"Some people use it with the last 1/8" missing...I would highly recommend against doing that. Not only can you damage the flat spring assembling it, but imagine if it jams?"[/i][/size]

Hmmm - I've shot maybe 300 rounds with the swaged button retainer completely missing! Including two EIC Service matches, one of which I won!

I will install the new assembly and keep a careful eye on it.

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Post by tovaert on 10/29/2020, 6:22 am

radjag wrote:"Some people use it with the last 1/8" missing...I would highly recommend against doing that. Not only can you damage the flat spring assembling it, but imagine if it jams?"

Hmmm - I've shot maybe 300 rounds with the swaged button retainer completely missing! Including two EIC Service matches, one of which I won!

I will install the new assembly and keep a careful eye on it.
I guess as long as the broken guide rod extends to or past, the muzzle end of the sliding washer (with the slide closed), it should not jam.

tovaert

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Post by 1bayouboy on 10/31/2020, 8:30 am

Count me in on one of those guide rods as well

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Post by tovaert on 10/31/2020, 9:30 am

1bayouboy wrote:Count me in on one of those guide rods as well
Yep...in.

tovaert

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