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Calling the line and shooting in a registered tournament

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Ed Hall
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Calling the line and shooting in a registered tournament Empty Calling the line and shooting in a registered tournament

Post by javaduke 1/17/2021, 12:46 pm

Trying to read and understand the section 11 of the rules. It says, and I quote, "The Match Director, Deputy Match Director, Chief Range Officer, Chief Statistical Officer and Official Referee may not compete in any tournament where they are officiating." My question is, who is the person calling the line? Is it always the match director? Could it be the range director (who apparently is not in the list above)?

Basically I'm trying to understand if there's anything in the rules that would prohibit me from shooting a relay 1 and calling the line in relay 2 (in a sanctioned tournament).

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Post by straybrit 1/17/2021, 1:57 pm

I asked the NRA about this a few years ago when I was organizing the state championship and was told (and I'm paraphrasing due to the elapsed time) "officials don't shoot - titles don't matter for this".

Approved and registered it's OK.

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Post by chiz1180 1/17/2021, 2:14 pm

If a CMP match, competition officials may compete (CMP Rule 3.2)
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Post by john bickar 1/17/2021, 8:30 pm

There is a difference between NRA Approved and Registered tournaments regarding who may compete. There is a table towards the front of the NRA rule book that compares the differences between the two types of tournaments.

Based on what you have written, I would consider you a match official and/or a range officer, but not any of the listed titles unless you are named as such.

Different governing body, but I have been on the Jury at USASNC while also competing. Obviously I would have had to recuse myself from any decisions regarding my match(es), which you should do as well when acting in any capacity as a match official (and I'm sure you would).

The spirit of the rule is to prevent conflict of interest. I'd take a really dim view of anyone who tried to stop a person who wants to help run a match, and who also wants to compete in the match. We have enough problems getting competitors and match wranglers.

Just don't institute the "Eugene gets to shoot from 10 yards" rule and I think you'll be good Laughing
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Post by straybrit 1/17/2021, 8:49 pm

He said sanctioned match John. Another set of requirements altogether.
I shot in every registered match I ran - but not in the sanctioned ones. At least that was the interpretation I was given.

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Post by bruce martindale 1/17/2021, 8:53 pm

Two day matches would let me call the line one day and shoot the other in a 2700. We're lucky to get a 1 day match and thar was before the plague

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Post by Ed Hall 1/17/2021, 9:27 pm

straybrit wrote:He said sanctioned match John. Another set of requirements altogether.
I shot in every registered match I ran - but not in the sanctioned ones. At least that was the interpretation I was given.
Sanctioned means Registered or Approved.  The rules are pretty specific as to who can compete.

For Approved:
NRA Rules wrote:8. Tournament Offi cials as Competitors - All Officials of an
NRA Approved Tournament (except Supervisors) may compete in
that tournament.

For Registered:
NRA Rules wrote:8. Tournament Officials as Competitors - The Match Direc-
tor, Deputy Match Director, Chief Range Officer, Chief Statistical
Offi er, and Chief Pit Officer (where applicable) may NOT com-
pete in a tournament at which they are officiating. Rule I 1 covers
specific duties of Tournament Officials.

Don't you guys have copies of the rules?

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Post by straybrit 1/17/2021, 9:29 pm

Mea culpa - that's what comes of relying on increasingly fallible memory

Edit to add: Though the NRA don't make it obvious
There are three types—Approved Tournaments, Registered Tournaments and Sanctioned Leagues.

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Post by Jon Eulette 1/17/2021, 9:51 pm

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe his question was actually answered. 
Calling the line to me means giving range commands. This is not being an official in my book.
Your thoughts?
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Post by straybrit 1/17/2021, 10:08 pm

Is this pertinent?

11.4.1 Chief Range Officer - Will have full charge of the range and will conduct the matches on the schedule approved by the Match Director and is responsible for range safety, and for enforcing all rules

'conduct' - could be construed as calling the range commands.

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Post by Wobbley 1/17/2021, 10:33 pm

The “ Match Director” could also be the “chief range officer” who then delegates line calling to two “assistant ROs” who could be competitors?
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Post by javaduke 1/17/2021, 11:03 pm

john bickar wrote:Just don't institute the "Eugene gets to shoot from 10 yards" rule and I think you'll be good Laughing
But...but I DO get to shoot from 10 yards (the air pistol, that is) Smile

I always like to play by the rules, just want to understand what the rules are and whether they can be bent a little bit. 
What's not clear to me is what is the role/title of a person who's calling a match. I couldn't find any clear answer in the rulebook.

I guess we'd be better off finding a dedicated match director for the DMW. John, maybe you can come down here and call the line for us? Smile You can stay at my place.

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Post by CR10X 1/18/2021, 6:34 am

Talk with the guys at Canton and see how they handle range callers.

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Post by Ed Hall 1/18/2021, 8:28 am

straybrit wrote:Mea culpa - that's what comes of relying on increasingly fallible memory

Edit to add: Though the NRA don't make it obvious
There are three types—Approved Tournaments, Registered Tournaments and Sanctioned Leagues.
Sanctioning means the event is officially recognized and on file.  Leagues are handled differently from Tournaments and are covered in other areas.  NRA will also sanction other disciplines as it does for IPSC events, etc. in New York State.  As for Tournaments that NRA presides over:
NRA rules wrote:APPENDIX
GENERAL REGULATIONS FOR NRA
SANCTIONED TOURNAMENTS

Tournament sponsors must follow these Regulations as directed
by Rule 1.4. They provide standard procedures required for the
sanctioning of NRA Tournaments, establishing of fee structures,
awards, reporting, cancellation, NRA membership requirements,
and other items involved with NRA Sanctioned Tournaments,
both Registered and Approved
. These Regulations do not apply to
Silhouette, or Action Shooting competitions, which have their own
General Regulations. These Regulations supersede all previous
editions and will remain in effect until specifi cally superseded.
(my emphasis added)

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Post by Ed Hall 1/18/2021, 8:37 am

javaduke wrote:. . .
I guess we'd be better off finding a dedicated match director for the DMW. John, maybe you can come down here and call the line for us? Smile You can stay at my place.
We normally have interested individuals who like to shoot, who aren't comfortable enough to shoot in a match, but will volunteer to be officials so others can compete.  And, if not, then we sacrifice.  Or, as we have done locally, move our matches to Approved, where we only lose one competitor.  The only real difference for the competitors, between Approved and Registered, is that they can't set National records, but our matches appear to not bump up against any of the records yet, anyway.

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Post by BullseyeBob 1/23/2021, 7:45 pm

Ed, Just joined today. I MD an Approved monthly SBR Prone match. I am looking at my printed copy of the 2020 rulebook. I see the first paragraph of section 11: Tournament Officials. It says that “Officials may compete in Approved , Registered, State and Regional Tournaments. National Championship Officials may not compete.

I don’t see anything about “Supervisors” and whether they may or may not compete. Can you help me out with the section that clarifies that?

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Post by Ed Hall 1/23/2021, 9:27 pm

BullseyeBob wrote:Ed, Just joined today. I MD an Approved monthly SBR Prone match. I am looking at my printed copy of the 2020 rulebook. I see the first paragraph of section 11: Tournament Officials. It says that “Officials may compete in Approved , Registered, State and Regional Tournaments. National Championship Officials may not compete.

I don’t see anything about “Supervisors” and whether they may or may not compete. Can you help me out with the section that clarifies that?
A few posts up:

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t16434-calling-the-line-and-shooting-in-a-registered-tournament#144839

has the sections of the rule book listed. They are from the Appendix.

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Post by BullseyeBob 1/24/2021, 7:15 am

You must be discussing a different discipline and or rulebook. That is not included in the 2020 revision of SBR Rulebook. In the Appendix on page 72 Section B ends with #2 and page 73 is the glossary. So I still don’t see it. I know that the rulebooks are numbered uniformly to make it easier for us old slow folks but I am missing page 72 1/2. Which rulebook are you referring to please?

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Post by CR10X 1/24/2021, 7:25 am

The actual introduction in section 11 of the NRA Precision Pistol Rule Book says:

Tournament Officials - Officials will be thoroughly familiar with conditions of the program and with National Rifle Association
Rules. The Match Director, Deputy Match Director, Chief Range Officer, Chief Statistical Officer and Official Referee may not compete in any tournament where they are officiating. In Approved tournaments the Supervisor is the only official who may not compete.  And reiterated in Appendix A.8 and B.8 in the General Regulations for Approved and Registered Tournaments.

So at our Approved tournaments, the person calling the line is designated the Supervisor for that tournament. 

But I cannot find anywhere in the rule book does that specifies that the person calling the match has to be a match official.  It is obvious that the person calling the match should be under the direction of a match official.  If the caller does not participate in any rule clarification, officiating or other duties, which would cause a conflict of interest then it would seem that it would be allowed IF that person was not also one of the "match officials" not allowed to participate in that tournament.

I believe that Canton does this, please see my comment above.  I do know that range volunteers at Camp Perry that work under the control of Range Officers, etc., and are allowed to participate in the tournament. 

If someone can find information or directions to the contrary, please let me know so I can add it to my notes on the NRA Precision Pistol Rules.  Thanks in advance. 

HOWEVER, and this is important: The NRA Referees and the NRA specifically said, in response to the situation below, that person calling a specific match cannot participate in that match.  (Notice I said "match" not tournament. People interchange these terms and they are not really the same thing.) 

This subject came up several years ago with the advent of automated line calling equipment (recorded commands and automatic controllers).  Someone proposed to simply have the remote control at hand and also be on the firing line and firing in the match.  The concern was that to do so would place the range at risk and be a very large safety concern since there would not be any personnel actively watching and controlling the line during firing.

This may account for some of the confusion moving forward.  

Then again, the only real goal is for EVERYONE to be SAFE and have a GREAT time shooting.  

CR

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Post by BullseyeBob 1/24/2021, 7:57 am

CR10X,
Thanks. Apparently the two disciplines/rulebooks differ. I’ll be quiet now.
Bob

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Post by Ed Hall 1/24/2021, 8:37 am

BullseyeBob wrote:You must be discussing a different discipline and or rulebook. That is not included in the 2020 revision of SBR Rulebook. In the Appendix on page 72 Section B ends with #2 and page 73 is the glossary. So I still don’t see it. I know that the rulebooks are numbered uniformly to make it easier for us old slow folks but I am missing page 72 1/2. Which rulebook are you referring to please?
Sorry!  I missed that you were asking about the SBR rules and was just working with Precision Pistol.  I'm not familiar at all with SBR.  As a note, NRA has several rule books for different disciplines and there are easily missed differences.

CR: I understood the recorded vs. manned tower worker to mean the caller could not fire on the relay they were calling, not that they couldn't be a competitor while someone else called on a different relay.

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