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Ammo Wiggles in Cylinder Chambers

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james r chapman
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Post by Soupy44 11/3/2021, 6:58 pm

On my continued focus with my model 14, I noticed that my ammo has significant play when inserted into the cylinders.  If I put a cleaned but unsized case in, it is definitely a nice snug fit.  I have had no case blow outs, and any split cases are at the mouth.  

My load measures .379" per SAAMI specs near the base and at the mouth.  A few rounds are .378", but I'm feeling a lot more play than a thousandth.  Tried getting my caliper in there, that was a crap shoot.

What is the spec for the throats?  What else should I look at?

Getting scared I got a lemon of a model 14!  Crying or Very sad


Last edited by Soupy44 on 11/4/2021, 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by DA/SA 11/3/2021, 7:39 pm

It sounds like you are looking at how the cases fit in the chambers, not the throats.

The throat is the foreword end of the chamber, which is a reduced diameter, that the projectile passes through just prior to leaving the cylinder and entering the barrel.
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Post by Soupy44 11/3/2021, 8:05 pm

Learning is a journey. Correct, loose in the chambers.

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Post by james r chapman 11/4/2021, 5:18 am

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

You need to reference chamber dimension, not cartridge dimensions.
Tolerances are +.004 also, so it’s a loose fit.


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Post by bruce martindale 11/4/2021, 2:06 pm

Just shoot it and do your best. The more you train, the luckier you get.

You could also RR test it or let a Master shoot it and evaluate it.

They have beards and know things....

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Post by RodJ 11/4/2021, 2:15 pm

Just checked my Model 19 (recessed) and Model 67 (nonrecessed) and my ammo wiggles if I pull the cartridge back just a hair out of the chamber and move it side to side.

Would never have noticed or given it a second thought until now.

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Post by Soupy44 11/4/2021, 2:35 pm

I believe I have taken human error out of the equation of my revolver woes. My gun with my initial load at 50 has given me scores everywhere from 47 to 92. I borrowed a model 17 and a model 14 at a match and found them to shoot significantly better than my model 14. 

I initially copied a load from a shooter from whom I borrowed his Model 14 for DR matches. I know I didn't crimp that load hard enough at first, but adding more crimp didn't really help. That load was 3.4gr of Titegroup with a coated Missouri Bullet Company 158gr SWC. I have loaded some test batches of 3.3-3.7gr Titegroup and 2.8-3.2gr of BE with SWC and RN 158gr bullets.

I was testing them in the cylinder when I noticed the wiggle. Before that I don't think I ever even touched the rounds after the speed loader put them in. Took me by surprise! Even factory ammo has has a lot of play while in the chambers.

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Post by Wobbley 11/4/2021, 2:54 pm

Contact Blackmass Custom in Liberty NC. 540-846-0086.  He is near you and can measure your cylinder chambers.  He is also Johnathan Shue who is a world-class pistol shooter in his own right.  

In retrospect tho, there isn’t much that can be done to correct any issues found.  You could send it back to S&W and get it re-cylindered, but theres no guarantee that will correct the inaccuracy.  So, if it doesn’t improve, then your option is to swap out the gun for something else.
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Post by james r chapman 11/4/2021, 6:04 pm

You might check forcing cone uniformity. My 14 had .004-.016 gsp and had to be set back a turn and refaced.
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Post by RodJ 11/4/2021, 7:27 pm

james r chapman wrote:You might check forcing cone uniformity. My 14 had .004-.016 gsp and had to be set back a turn and refaced.
Jim, here’s my lack of revolver knowledge. What is “gsp”?  Do you mean gap? And how was it variable?  Not sure I follow.  After setting the barrel back and refacing it, did your smith recut the forcing cone?  Sorry I’m just a bit lost except for the most very basics of revolver repair / tuning. 

My M19 mystifies me. I’m just starting a bit of single action shooting and the “groups” look like I was standing on a rotating concrete truck going at 70mph shooting off hand with my left. 

Ahem … uh downright embarrassing!  I’m sure it’s me but hey, maybe it’s partly the gun.

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Post by james r chapman 11/4/2021, 8:07 pm

Gsp=gap.
Yes, the barrel was refaced true to the cylinder face and the forcing cone recut.
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Post by RodJ 11/4/2021, 11:30 pm

james r chapman wrote:Gsp=gap.
Yes, the barrel was refaced true to the cylinder face and the forcing cone recut.
Thank you! You’re a Bullseye L forum gem and fount of knowledge. It’s hard for new BE shooters to express appreciation especially when there’s not a lot of local coaches to seek out for information. (To be fair, we have a 2700 match per month but I wish there was a weekly league and practice locally)

Thanks again. 
Rod

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Post by CR10X 11/5/2021, 5:49 am

Well, the Model 14 that the OP borrowed was tuned by Jerry Keefer, so there might be a little difference from a regular factory gun.   Wink Smile  
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Post by DA/SA 11/5/2021, 6:44 am

CR10X wrote:Well, the Model 14 that the OP borrowed was tuned by Jerry Keefer, so there might be a little difference from a regular factory gun.   Wink Smile  
CR
There is always just a little more to the story!  Smile
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Post by Soupy44 11/5/2021, 8:10 am

Cecil, I'm guessing I'm getting a sniff of why you say revolvers are the devil's work!

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Post by CR10X 11/5/2021, 8:55 am

Yep, after DR#9, the bullseye revolvers went back into the safe and only come out when I'm really, really, really bored or someone wants to shoot one.  

Funny thing (at least in my experience) is that most revolvers are pretty accurate with jacketed loads and/or full wadcutters; but that 158 gr SWC / RN lead for DR takes some work for some reason.  The best reload I found was with the Oregon Trail RN bullet (38 CAL. 158G RN .358) that looks almost " round ball" shaped at the nose.  I think you shot some of those, but I can't remember. 

But I see no reason for me to shoot bullseye with a wheel gun at my age anymore.  If I want that much aggravation, I'll just go to the golf course.  BUT I do like watching others take up the challenge!   Laughing

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Post by Soupy44 11/5/2021, 9:25 am

Wobbley, I am eyeballing a few full lug model 14s online. After testing the ammo I have loaded next weekend, I'll know if I'll tough it out to buy a new gun and sell this one.

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Post by Soupy44 11/8/2021, 2:14 pm

Had a thought, doubt anything will come of it.  

Could there be a problem using coated bullets in a revolver VS lead or jacketed?  Maybe something about what happens to the coaching through the throat and/or forcing cone?

I've ordered all lead bullets anyways, but my first load was coated.

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