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Basic questions about ammunition

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RodJ
BE Mike
Ed Hall
mutley
SingleActionAndrew
NukeMMC
Foundryratjim
Wobbley
Jon Eulette
DA/SA
Pinetree
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SaraiEsq
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Post by SaraiEsq Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ah, yes, I have more questions.

I am shooting a new Ruger Mark IV Target pistol.  My round count is just reaching 1000 so I can't blame everything on a new not-yet-broken-in gun.  One of the problems I am having is failure to eject.  The FTE is usually the first round (i.e., I shoot one round and it doesn't eject entirely so I can't get the second shot off) and some days seems mag dependent (but not always for either).  

The advice I've received on the line includes:
1) put a drop of oil on the first round in each magazine (I do this now and it seems to help)
2) change ammo*
3) don't use HV ammo
4) use HV ammo
5) use rounded lead ammo
6) use metal jacketed ammo

I know that, ultimately, the best ammunition for my pistol is that which works reliably and results in nice tight groupings.

*Ammunition I've tried: Norma Tac, CCi Standard, CCi MiniMags, Aguila SE copper, Aguila SE HP, Aguila SE lead, Winchester, Armscor.  I've yet to find anything which consistently makes me happy.

I have two requests presently:

1) Can someone please provide me with an explanation of high velocity and standard velocity ammunition, especially as it relates to precision pistol (.22 primarily, obviously), with the pros and cons of each?

2) What are some techniques to clear a FTE in RF when you've already used your alibi? And in other, less time critical situations?  Smile

Thank you all so much!!
SaraiEsq
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Post by Jon Eulette Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:47 pm

SaraiEsq wrote:
mutley wrote:This is a new gun?  I'd send it back to Ruger and tell them to fix it.
 And, I've been told the break-in period for this model varies from 1000-2000 rounds.
Two things:
1) Be careful when sending pistols back to Ruger. If it had a trigger job they will return it with stock factory parts installed.
2) 1000-2000 rds to break in is just flat out wrong. It's a bone stock pistol. If it's not running in 100-200 rds there's an underlying problem.

Jon
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Post by msmith44 Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:12 pm

SaraiEsq wrote:
DA/SA wrote:I may have misunderstood your issue, but it sounds to me like your pistol is presently sprung for some pretty high velocity ammo. Does the case stay stuck in the chamber, or does it partially extract and then ride the bolt/extractor closed again?

In other words, does the bolt fully cycle when it doesn't extract the spent case?

This photo is staged but it is usually something like this:

Basic questions about ammunition - Page 2 Fte_ex10

The new round can be partially in the barrel or held against the back wall of the chamber by the spent casing.  

What do you mean when you say the pistol is "presently sprung for some pretty high velocity ammo"?

Based on your photo and description of where the new round is located I don't think this is a recoil spring problem. The stock Ruger Target recoil spring should be able to handle both HV and SV ammo. If you send the gun back to Ruger ask them to test the gun with the magazines that came with the gun.

There is no harm in trying the Volquartsen Recoil Rod and Spring Kit at $22.50 but...I suggest this is a magazine problem. 

Ruger IV magazines vary. The "good" ones have the proper ammo angle positioning and the bolt can pick up the new round while the "bad" magazines don't allow proper angle positioning and bolt timing. The link below explains the problem and suggests a solution with a YMMV caveat. You could (or have someone) work on one of the magazines where the problem occurs most often. Make the adjustments and see if it helps. 

https://www.wirthweinguns.com/Ruger-MK-Mags.php

There are more expensive options but this is where I would start. I own a straight Ruger IV Target, a Volquartsen Black Mamba (Ruger IV poly frame) and a Black Mamba TF (Ruger poly 22/45 frame). My Ruger IV magazines were accursed and I've never had a stove pipe or extraction problem with the stock Ruger bolt.

Still another edit: When I first started shooting again I had stove pipe issues because my grip was too loose. Once I started double checking to make sure I had a firm grip on the back and making adjustments if it wasn't the stove pipes stopped. So you might double check that.


Last edited by msmith44 on Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:08 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Added link, another thought on loose grip and stove pipes)

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Post by SaraiEsq Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:40 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I would look into the Volquartsen Edge Extractor. I’ve been seeing many Rugers with extraction issues. This extractor normally helps things out. Pretty easy to install. All my Rugers run on SV ammunition.
Jon

Especially since the various competition/accurizing kits on the Volquartsen website seem all to be on backorder, I am going to try this and see if it helps.  (crosses fingers) With a little luck and carefully attention to directions, I hope your idea of "pretty easy to install" syncs with at least my idea of "possible to install at home".

I am also going to tweak one of the magazines.  It came with one and I bought two more the day before my first match with the pistol.  (Yes.  I know.  Untried equipment at a match is not conducive to good shooting but neither is trying to shoot an 1800 match with only one magazine ... no matter how patient your line is ....)

And, someone is providing me with a bit of Federal ammo to see if that helps.

I'll report back, folks, and thank you all so much!!
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Post by Jon Eulette Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:03 pm

Magazine related issues are typically with feeding, not extraction. But if feed lips are too loose on the front they allow cartridge to flop up and interfere with positive extraction/ejection.

Use one magazine at a time and shoot (4) strings of 5 shots. See if one magazine has an issue or one magazine is the best.

Your better HM shooters only use ONE magazine to shoot the match. Too many magazines is not your friend. They can affect group and reliability.

Jon
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Post by Jon Eulette Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:26 pm

So I’ve been shooting my mki Ruger lately. It has front feed lips. They have tension on the cartridge.
My mkii magazines have no feed lips. Several months ago I tried a magazine I found that front of the rear feed lips was spread too far apart and fed horribly. Tweaked the lips and runs perfect now.
More to think about.
Jon
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Post by tovaert Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:27 pm

Perhaps you have already done this, but make sure that the ejector is not scraping against it's machined slot on the bolt. That will interfere with the bolt moving back. I also suggest scrubbing the bolt face with a nylon wire brush and carbon solvent, making sure that there is no residue on the bolt face, especially under the extractor and along the rim (cutout) recess. A small amount of residue on the bolt face can cause ejection problems. Also make sure that the pin that retains the firing pin is centered in the bolt and not scraping against the inside (bore) of the frame (mine did...it was too loose). Since it's a new gun, if you want to try something before sending it off to Ruger, get nylon .22 and .25 cal pistol brushes and read up on scrubbing a .22LR chamber. A lot of factory chamber surfaces are still rough from the reaming process. Sure, thousands of fired rounds will wear that roughness smooth, but I had a new Ruger MkIV Hunter that did the same thing (stovepipes). I worked over the chamber for about 1/2 hr using a method that most folks here would likely faint over, but afterwards I never had another stovepipe, and it still easily held the x-ring at 50 yards. There can be absolutely no burrs or roughness "ridges" in the chamber. The fired case expands and grabs that roughness, this can momentarily prevent the case from being pulled from the chamber, then you can have stovepipe problems. If you have a good gunsmith nearby, you may also want to see if they have standard .22LR SAAMI reamers. I believe the Target and Competition models come with a tighter (Match) chamber? More of a PITA in a semi-automatic Bullseye pistol, then absolutely necessary for excellent 50 yd accuracy (with good consistent ammo, that is). Opening up a "match" chamber sounds like heresy until you realize that it's not an exotic Euro pistol; especially if the problems disappear and the gun shoots reliably. Magazine work is another issue and important.

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Post by SaraiEsq Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:22 pm

Wow.  Just wow.

So I ordered the Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractor that Jon recommended.  It arrived today (what a happy text message that was!).  Being the adventurous sort, I decided to attempt to install it when I got home from work.  Three videos and an hour later, I had the new extractor installed.  The hardest part was finding the sweet spot between the extractor and the plunger holding it in place.

I went to the range; bought CCi Standard, Winchester, and Aguila SE ammunition; and tried the pistol out.

FLAWLESS.  

150+/- rounds and NO issues.  The brass was a bit more vigorous when it exited than I was used to but I can live with that.  I used three different mags and, at the end, mixed the ammo types in each mag.  The pistol said, "Too easy!" and we had a blast. ;-)

Here was my target at 25 yards, about 45-50 rounds all told.

Basic questions about ammunition - Page 2 02102010

I still need to work on hitting the middle part of the target...

Thank you all so much -- especially Jon!
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Post by Foundryratjim Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:57 pm

That's good to hear. I just ordered a extractor and firing pin from them.

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Post by mustachio Sat Feb 11, 2023 4:11 pm

My Ruger Mkii frame mated with a Volquartsen LLV 6" upper is a tack driver with Norma Tac 22. It does not like CCI standard velocity, Aquila, but does like Eley. All the innards are Volquartsen.
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Post by Allgoodhits Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:50 pm

Does your gun run flawlessly if you load only 4 rds in magazine? 3 rds in magazine? 2 rds in magazine? If so so it is likely magazine spring tension is slowing down (drag) on the bolt. If so, disassemble magazines, clean and lightly, very lightly oil interior. Try different ammo brands. It is not always HV vs SV, manufacturers use different powders. Some may give a quicker or higher pressure, which cycles the gun better. Cold weather, oil choice, ammo play a role in .22LR reliability in my experience.
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