Readers of Hickey and Sievers' book?

If you've read it and think that you know what they're trying to communicate, could you please weigh in?  I need a few clarifications.  I tried to find both these guys.  They may not even be around anymore.
Thanks.

And only $162.20 a copy! All 662 pages!

https://www.amazon.com/Successful-Pistol-Shooting-Bob-Hickey/dp/0939414031

Didn't read it.

I knew Art Sievers.  His basic mantra was sound in that to shoot a pistol well you just need two fundamentals: Sight Alignment and Trigger Control.  He said that stance, grip, etc. was “technique” not a fundamental.  Hard to argue with that.  I would add that the “technique” has to be solid to begin with and that means it can be thought of as a “basic” function.

Ashley, do you know how close to High Master Art was? Have you read his book?

He quit shooting pistol before there was a High Master classification.  He was on a few Navy teams and was likely a “2600” level shooter, but likely not more.  When I knew him he was into high power and Palma style shooting.  He was getting on in years and while not destitute wasn’t terribly wealthy either.  He eventually only came to prone (Palma) style matches.  Then I moved away from the area.  I have not read his book.

The book has some reviews on Amazon.  https://www.amazon.com/Successful-Pistol-Shooting-Bob-Hickey/dp/0939414031#customerReviews

Freeland's has them for $49.95, if someone is interested...

https://freelandssports.com/product/successful-pistol-shooting-hardcover-bob-hickey-art-sievers-stp-books/

Also found a bunch of used copies pretty cheap at abebooks. com   I'm sorry I can't post the full link as I'm a new member. I think I'll pick up a copy.

Stuman wrote:Also found a bunch of used copies pretty cheap at abebooks. com   I'm sorry I can't post the full link as I'm a new member. I think I'll pick up a copy.

Thanks! Just got a copy ordered. I have his Mental Training book from 1979 so this will be a nice addition to the collection.

inthebeech wrote:If you've read it and think that you know what they're trying to communicate, could you please weigh in?  I need a few clarifications.  I tried to find both these guys.  They may not even be around anymore.
Thanks.

I've got a copy- what exactly did you need clarifications on?

Neither one of the authors appear to be distinguished pistol shots, or have any pistol points, so far as I can tell.

-Chase

Art Sievers was rifle distinguished and he did serve at te US Naval Academy as Coach/instructor of the Shooting team…

[quote="Chase Turner"]
I've got a copy- what exactly did you need clarifications on?
[/quote]
1)  Their whole concept is based on a near immediate hammer release upon entering the "reference point" which is their term for hold point.  There is no "accepting your wobble" because you are not watching your wobble for more than a fraction of a second.  If you've read this then you also noticed this philosophy peppered throughout the whole book.  It starts on Pg 93-98, then again on pg 143 and other locations.  In fact the authors actually blame the lack of US olympic medals on the training philosophy that we are all taught to "accept the wobble and squeeze."  I'm a horrible shooter with no prospect for making any serious progress so I don't have a dog in the hunt.  I'm a scientist and by nature was simply interested in the book.

2). pg 129-130. "Rhythm in rapid is senseless."  Don't blame the messenger.  These are their words.  When you read the entire section you see that there is no interpretation here that can mean anything else.  So this is pretty contentious as well (based on what folks have told me while trying to coach me). 

3). pg 155-156.  There is no natural point of aim.  An explanation is given for how to obtain your stance and it is not the same as the "close your eyes, raise gun, open eyes, assess where you're pointed, adjust, repeat" technique that again, has been recommended many times elsewhere. You are not attempting to find anything “natural” with their process for obtaining correct stance. It is novel and interesting but again, quite different than what is commonly taught. 

4) pg 278 Placement of trigger finger technique.  Nothing contentious here; similar to what is printed elsewhere.

5) pg 279. Blinking accompanies erratic trigger finger movement (poor trigger control) and is  the reason why our last picture of the sights does not agree with the location of the bullet hole.  Kovach mentioned looking for this symptom and I am very grateful that he has but I’ve not read or heard it anywhere else before that until this book. Again, not judging; just interesting.

6) pg 445 Authors heavily stress that with their program, a conditioned response develops, at the instant the eye (and brain) perceives the bull.  They also however advocate, as many other folks do, dry firing on a blank wall.  Wouldn't we be undoing the training of our nervous system if, after “training” our finger to move when the bull shows up, by dry firing on anything but the bull?  Maybe I missed something in the reading.  They emphatically stress that the bull is a critical mental trigger to engage the finger and keep it moving but they do not assure the reader that dry firing with no bull is still effective.  How can it be.  This training technique would not follow the pattern employed in Pavlov who they reference when they first introduce the concept.  

7) Pg 480.  Their plan, mentioned throughout the book, involves a very rapid arm raise, right up to exactly where we've decided we want our hold point, at which time through previously developed conditioned response, the gun fires. But the angular velocity must decrease and eventually stop yet there is no detail on exactly how to do this.  Neither is there any mention of whether it is permissible to overshoot the hold point (we typically intentionally overshoot and then lower DOWN to the hold point because, we are told by physiologists and sports medicine experts that stopping at a specific area is easier if coming down to the target) or how specifically should the angular velocity profile look.  The more precise we want to stop, the slower our approach must be and nothing can be instantaneous.  If I could ask this of these guys I'm sure they will point out where I missed the answer to my question, in their book.  Since the only arm raising process discussed is where the shooter comes up from beneath, I was also left wondering how they would tell us to reacquire the target after the recoil of the 45 sends the gun ABOVE the target, forcing us to COME DOWN to it.

8) Pg 495 (and again in many other places) is the common theme that a rapid raising up t the target and near instantaneous release (because we started applying pressure about halfway up) AS WE ARE APPROACHING our hold point is MORE accurate than a "controlled reaction to an external stimulus" which is their technical description of holding the gun within our accepted wobble area while applying trigger pressure.  Unless I'm interpreting this wrong, this is very different; not just a close cousin of what everyone else advises.  I wish someone who actually went through their program, could speak to us.

Very interesting read though.  Well worth the $2.50 I paid in a used book store.  Not valuable enough to keep.  I donated it to my club's library after taking some notes.

Thanks for the detailed rejoinder. It has been awhile since I've read the book, and I'll need to dig out my copy to re-read what they said before responding point to point. Give me a little time and I promise to get back to you.

However, I can say that I'm not a fan of the book. I think it may be one of the most bloviated shooting books I've ever come across. Style wise, other than being so windy, it's also one of the most self serving books I've ever read- I put up there with Lanny Basham's books in this regard.

From what I remember, in terms of content, a great deal of what they are writing about seemed to me to come from their perspective as mostly rifle shooters (who were probably contrarians among rifle shooters) and not accomplished pistol shooters- of which they were not. Generally, I think that while they seem to go to great lengths to take alternative views on various shooting topics, they also seem to think that shooting is the rigid enterprise that can only be done the one way. That's not so.

Give me a little time to dig in and I'll respond when I can. In the meantime, if you'd like another book to read, get a copy of what I call "the blue bible:" A.A. Yuri'yev's Competitive Shooting. It was published by the NRA, back when they did such things, and is absolutely the blueprint for coming up with a successful shooting program/regimen for yourself. If you've already read it, you know what I mean.

Thanks,
Chase

“Bloviated”…that’s the Art Sievers I remember.  

Uh, what is the title of this book? Did I miss it?

https://www.amazon.com/Successful-Pistol-Shooting-Bob-Hickey/dp/0939414031

what exactly did you need clarifications on?