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Need help with choice of guns

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Post by Mike 2245 1/4/2024, 3:21 pm

Hi, everyone.
I picked up competitive shooting a year ago, meaning I'm still a newbie.
My first (and current) gun is Ruger Mark IV 22/45. I put custom trigger and grips on it, it works, but I'm looking to upgrade it.
My peer is selling two guns, both in good condition, both with iron sights.
I took them to the range and I liked them both.
-- Browning Medalist, made in Belgium back in 1959. The barrel seems to be just under 6''.
-- High Standard Supermatic Citation, 7.25'' barrel.

Browning has a perfect ergonomic and balance, and I love handling it.
Hi-Standard sits well in the hand, it is extremely accurate, but it's heavier.
Magazines for Browning from what I see are more expensive and I don't know anything about parts, should I replace anything later.

I am also concerned with mounting red-dot.
Browning has a flat rib on the top of the barrel, maybe I can find a raiser or just drill this rib and screw a pic rail to it?
With Hi-Standard my only option might be to drill and tap the barrel. Not sure if this is OK to do.

I'd appreciate any help with this.
Thanks, guys.


Need help with choice of guns Browni11
Need help with choice of guns Hi-sta11


Last edited by Mike 2245 on 1/4/2024, 5:33 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Adding Images)

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Post by DA/SA 1/4/2024, 3:44 pm

You can get an LSP Bull Barrel with a scope mount for the High Standard. They make an aluminum barrel as well for even less muzzle weight. It is a shorter barrel which will help with the muzzle heaviness, and you don't need a 7.25" barrel when using a red dot scope.

https://lspshootingaccessories.com/
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Post by Pinetree 1/4/2024, 7:17 pm

One of the best shooters on our squad uses the Ruger Mark IV with the Volquartsen bolt assembly.

But I would buy both those guns anyway...



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Post by chiz1180 1/4/2024, 7:19 pm

The high standard probably would be easier to get a dot on however, I dig the browning. I would definitely rock it with irons.
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Post by 301bruce 1/5/2024, 7:42 am

I love my Medalist but don't shoot it very often. It has a very cool built in dry fire function.

Mine is almost like new, so I won't put a dot on it. But if I had 2...

Browning Medalist Red Dot Mount | Rimfire Central Firearm Forum

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/browning-medalist-red-dot-mount.1292119/


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Post by BE Mike 1/5/2024, 8:12 am

Although a beautiful pistol, I'd steer clear of the Browning. As you say, magazines are hard to find and expensive. There is little to no support for the Browning as to parts (either replacement or after market). With the Hi Standard, you'll likely want a shorter barrel, eventually. At this point, you have a better pistol in the Ruger and have a lot of options to modify it to your specific desires. I'd take the money that you're going to put into one of the pistols and buy a case of quality practice ammo or put it towards a nice used bullseye accurized 1911 in .45 ACP. Having said that, I know how strong the pull is to get another pistol.
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Post by bruce martindale 1/5/2024, 8:22 am

If you’re a new shooter, and under 45 with good eyes, I would encourage use of iron sights. You can learn a lot about trigger from iron sights….

You can also get computer or shooting glasses that are focused at 36”

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Post by Froneck 1/5/2024, 9:17 am

bruce martindale wrote:If you’re a new shooter, and under 45 with good eyes, I would encourage use of iron sights. You can learn a lot about trigger from iron sights….

You can also get computer or shooting glasses that are focused at 36”
 I have often commented on learning to shoot with iron sights, the reverse is better! Learning with a red dot is much faster! When Adam was younger he started (8 years old) with red dot, he didn't like iron, when we went into the AMU was told that he would not compete on the team because he just got to the AMU but when issued the 9mm service pistol he shot better than all the other shooter so he was put on the team. At Perry he was the new shooter on the "Ball" team, was the team's highest shooter, they won the match. In addition Adam won the Individual Service pistol match! All with required iron sights! Later when he became the coach of the AMU pistol team he changed the standard that the new shooter had to start with iron and would get a red dot mounted when their scores reached a particular level, they got the red dot sight immediately. As per Adam shooters learned to shoot faster when the red dot was used!
 If it were me deciding what .22 to buy I would look into a conversion! Having one grip angle as the 1911 is advantageous simply because the other gun needed and can be used in the CF match is the 1911 .45ACP. Adam's .22 while shooting for the AMU was a modified 208 with 1911 grips. He has one modified and one stock 208 but is working with conversions as he's getting ready to shoot as a civilian. His 1911 is from Accuracy X.
 I have a number of high end .22 pistols AW 93 and MatchhGun2 among the group but working on my .22 conversion for a dedicated 1911 frame. Yes my AW has 1911 grips and I had 1911 grips 3D-printed for my MatchGun.

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Post by RoyDean 1/5/2024, 9:21 am

I love Ruger 22/45's. A Ruger scope rail is about $20, anyone can fit it. Choose any modest red dot - my suggestion is an Ultradot 1" 4moa, with horizontal split mounts (Monstrum off Amazon are good). If you need a pair of guns = dot + irons - get a second 22/45 with the same drop-in trigger kit and grip plates.

Forget the rest. Next step up is a Pardini!

I know, I know. Everyone will tell you I'm made of money and just buying points. 

But, I'm also honest!!!!

And, in my experience - it works!

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Post by chiz1180 1/5/2024, 10:00 am

bruce martindale wrote:If you’re a new shooter, and under 45 with good eyes, I would encourage use of iron sights. You can learn a lot about trigger from iron sights….

You can also get computer or shooting glasses that are focused at 36”
If you are a new shooter (or seasoned shooter), the one verse the other argument is foolish. The absolute best option is having the equipment ability (multiple guns or the ability to remove the do and retain zero) to shoot booth and actually shooting both. The one verse the other is nonsense. Sights are sights. Both optics and irons have pros and cons. The best shooters shoot both to a relatively equal level. Also lots of people blame a particular sight system on poor performance while ignoring other key areas that need improvement that if improved would drastically improve all around performance.
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Post by Froneck 1/5/2024, 10:02 am

Pardini is a good gun! Just about all the Olymic shooters use them! But few of the High Masters in Bullseye do! AMI shooters have their choice of guns, they have all of the top .22s made! But at the time Adam was with the team no AMU shooter selected the Pardini, if my memory is correct all used the 208s. Adam and a few others were trying the .22 conversion.
 Simply put in Pistol shooting you can't "buy a score" (unless you bribe the scorer lol!) High scores require learning how to shoot a pistol accurately! However a bad gun will prevent anyone from learning how to shoot plus getting a good score. The thoughts that a gun is good enough because it can group better than you can is wrong! The gun must be capable of shooting a perfect score in a machine rest then it's all up to the shooter!
 I don't imply red dot sights are better, all the Olympic shooters must use iron! However  red dots do provide a faster learning curve. As with Adam he learned with red dot then applied the skill while using iron! Red dots are simply easier to use!

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Post by RoyDean 1/5/2024, 10:12 am

Chiz, mate, whilst your sentiments are, given a "level playing field", quite correct. But, you are still rather young. Most of the punters on this forum are even older than me! So. Older shooters, generally, struggle with iron sights, even with the very best corrective glasses, etc.

There are, of course, super-humans in the game, my pal John Zurek, already 60, grip like Jack Reacher and eyesight like a hawk!

But most of us are mere, or even lesser, mortals. Older folks, if they are just starting out, should develop their fundamentals with a competent red dot 22 (e.g. Ruger 22/45 with a trigger and dot). Then, once they are keeping everything in the black, experiment with a similar iron sight gun (with appropriate corrective glasses if needed).

Voila!

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Post by Froneck 1/5/2024, 10:29 am

Back when scopes and red dots started to be used quite a bit and top shooter winning matches with them others complained it was not fair! NRA did a survey and found scopes or red dots did Not provided any advantage! However they did help older shooters to shoot since eye sight was diminishing. Many of the record scores were done with iron and as guns and ammo get better the older record scores are being beaten. But that is true with any sport!

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Post by chiz1180 1/5/2024, 10:32 am

RoyDean wrote:Chiz, mate, whilst your sentiments are, given a "level playing field", quite correct. But, you are still rather young. Most of the punters on this forum are even older than me! So. Older shooters, generally, struggle with iron sights, even with the very best corrective glasses, etc.

There are, of course, super-humans in the game, my pal John Zurek, already 60, grip like Jack Reacher and eyesight like a hawk!

But most of us are mere, or even lesser, mortals. Older folks, if they are just starting out, should develop their fundamentals with a competent red dot 22 (e.g. Ruger 22/45 with a trigger and dot). Then, once they are keeping everything in the black, experiment with a similar iron sight gun (with appropriate corrective glasses if needed).

Voila!
For arguments sake I am the one of the younger shooters yes, however I have and regularly so been bested by many shooters at least 2x my age with worse eyesight with both optics and irons. Also for reference I have required corrective glasses for roughly 2/3 of my life now, so yes my eyes are "younger" but I know plenty who are older than me who have better non-corrected vision than I do. The very best does not mean most practical, which from a simplicity sake is pick one system.
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Post by Froneck 1/5/2024, 10:58 am

Chriz; Your questions involve the .22, most .22 pistols will shoot a perfect score in a machine rest! Being able to adjust trigger pull in most of the import high end pistols allow the shooter to experiment and find the perfect location. One of the most important parts of shooing a good score is correct finger placement length. Guns that are not adjustable require trigger modification. Again the 1911 is easy since the trigger is easy to remove, different lengths available and slight adjustment with a file can be done. Too much can be fixed with epoxy until the prefect length is determined then a replacement installed that is the perfect length for the finger length on your hand! Simply put that is why I recommend the 1911 frame, it is the most practical frame to get to fit the shooters hand! Also you don't need a high end red dot like Aimpoint! One with very little parallax will work!
 The conversion on a 1911 has a fixed barrel and scope or iron mounted to the barrel! Grips and trigger length can be altered to adjust the gun to the shooters hand. Trigger release is not easy, best to have a qualified Bullseye smith do it!
 Not practical is spending lots of money on ammo in a poor gun while trying to learn to shoot a good score using poor equipment! Brick of 500 .22s is a drop in the very large bucket for competition shooters.

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Post by BE Mike 1/5/2024, 11:08 am

Froneck wrote:
bruce martindale wrote:If you’re a new shooter, and under 45 with good eyes, I would encourage use of iron sights. You can learn a lot about trigger from iron sights….

You can also get computer or shooting glasses that are focused at 36”
 I have often commented on learning to shoot with iron sights, the reverse is better! Learning with a red dot is much faster! When Adam was younger he started (8 years old) with red dot, he didn't like iron, when we went into the AMU was told that he would not compete on the team because he just got to the AMU but when issued the 9mm service pistol he shot better than all the other shooter so he was put on the team. At Perry he was the new shooter on the "Ball" team, was the team's highest shooter, they won the match. In addition Adam won the Individual Service pistol match! All with required iron sights! Later when he became the coach of the AMU pistol team he changed the standard that the new shooter had to start with iron and would get a red dot mounted when their scores reached a particular level, they got the red dot sight immediately. As per Adam shooters learned to shoot faster when the red dot was used!
 If it were me deciding what .22 to buy I would look into a conversion! Having one grip angle as the 1911 is advantageous simply because the other gun needed and can be used in the CF match is the 1911 .45ACP. Adam's .22 while shooting for the AMU was a modified 208 with 1911 grips. He has one modified and one stock 208 but is working with conversions as he's getting ready to shoot as a civilian. His 1911 is from Accuracy X.
 I have a number of high end .22 pistols AW 93 and MatchhGun2 among the group but working on my .22 conversion for a dedicated 1911 frame. Yes my AW has 1911 grips and I had 1911 grips 3D-printed for my MatchGun.
My takeaway is that your son learned how to operate the trigger without disturbing the sight alignment at a very early age. To me, trigger control is much more important than what kind of sights are on top of your handgun, especially when considering that the OP is just starting out.
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Post by Froneck 1/5/2024, 11:30 am

BE Mike: What is nice about red dot is you can easily see the mistakes. Removing the need to align hard to see iron sights with easy to see red dot. When good score is established with red dot the skill learned is then applied when using iron. Kinda like learning to drive with automatic transmission, driving skills are then applied to driving with transmission the requires manual shifting.

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Post by BE Mike 1/5/2024, 1:14 pm

Froneck wrote:BE Mike: What is nice about red dot is you can easily see the mistakes. Removing the need to align hard to see iron sights with easy to see red dot. When good score is established with red dot the skill learned is then applied when using iron. Kinda like learning to drive with automatic transmission, driving skills are then applied to driving with transmission the requires manual shifting.
What is bad about red dots is one can see his/ her movement more readily which can contribute to chicken finger, especially for someone just starting out and not having the muscle tone for those tiny muscle groups that help in stability of hold. It really can be a hinderance in sustained fire. Another thing is the extra weight of the scope, as well as, extra cost. I take it that you coached your son and he developed an interest before joining AMU. That's great. Afterwards he could progress rapidly with unlimited ammo, guns and top tier training and coaching. A civilian, just starting out, has a lot of barriers to his/ her development. Often times he or she will ingrain bad habits, being unable to recognize them and figure it out down the line, only to break the bad habit and develop good ones. I've shot with and without dots. They sure help when those eyes age. On the other hand, I've seen younger civilians who use dots and don't recognize bad trigger control because the recoil covers up their mistakes. Dots probably shine most in dry fire. There are pluses and minuses to both systems.
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Post by Froneck 1/5/2024, 2:26 pm

BE Mike; the movent seen in the red dot is what can't be seen in iron. Movement is the same. That movement has to be accepted. In addition seeing the movement will help in doing what can be done to lower it. But one has to continue the trigger pull until the shot breaks! Granted there will be times when the pull is interrupted like a sudden gust of wind.
 Yes I did as much as possible to coach my son. I directed my effort to improve him rather than myself seeing that he had great interest and applied himself to learning to shoot top scores and would be greater than I could achieve. I then directed my action to learning more about what it requires to be a good shooter so that I could coach my son.
 Adam was willing to accept my direction and as results confirmed my coaching that was nothing more than I gained from research. My effort was to supply the best equipment. Hype was not what I was concerned with, I did in my shop to learn what was required to make the best shooting pistol. Other smiths that I befriended helped me toward my task of making a tack driver for Adam.
 It's not what gun a champion shooter is shooting nor how the person is shooting, simply because you are not them! The secret is how did they develop the method they used to advance their ability and use it to create the action you use. Most of the top shooter will provide information and the shooter that is interested in advancing his ability to accept what is needed and train with that information. To much of the information available in no good, only what is offer by the shooter that has proven to shoot great is what should be applied. During Adam's time with the AMU he was sent to various bases to instruct others in shooting pistol, rack grade guns were always used. That was to eliminate the excuse that the instructor/instructors had better guns. A shooter has to accept the performance relies on his ability to produce a good shot and that his training is directed to that end.


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Post by Jack H 1/5/2024, 3:59 pm

Precise alignment and trigger control I think (make that "know") are seen more AT the gun with irons.
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Post by Smokey99 1/16/2024, 6:36 am

Mike, I have a Medalist and a pic rail for it. The rail was made for me about 10 years ago - they had me measure the width of my Medalist rail. I just Googled their web site  www.bme-mounts.com but it would not come up. I've shot with S&W, Ruger, High Std. The Medalist is the best!

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Post by TargetPistolGuy 1/16/2024, 7:59 am

There’s no perfect answer here. Buy the one that excites / inspires you practice the most and get after it. As you encounter new shooters and guns try theirs and be open your preferences changing over time. It’s all part of the fun bullseye experience. Welcome to the anti-sport!

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Post by Zipp0 1/16/2024, 8:15 am

think about it for minus 2 seconds and buy a Pardini

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Post by gixerman 1/16/2024, 8:35 am

Walther GSP Expert would be a great choice as well, Pardini and GSP Expert another level compared to a Voltquartsen Mamba type gun which are decent.. just not at the level of a specialized Bullseye gun in my opinion. They are very expensive and not as versatile for other shooting as they are far more specialized

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Post by JRV 1/16/2024, 8:50 am

The Ruger will shoot national record scores if it has a good trigger,, good ammo, and a steady shooter holding it.

If you are going to upgrade just to upgrade, upgrade to something that has modern parts support. Those old High Standards are neat, but if you mishandle a previously-tuned magazine, it will become an alibi machine. And, parts/mags are basically non-existent for the Browning.

A high-quality 1911 conversion will serve you well, especially if you plan to shoot .45. Otherwise, the upgrade recommendations you’re getting here are spot on (Hammerli, Walther, Pardini).

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