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Need help with choice of guns

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Nickster
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Post by Mike 2245 Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hi, everyone.
I picked up competitive shooting a year ago, meaning I'm still a newbie.
My first (and current) gun is Ruger Mark IV 22/45. I put custom trigger and grips on it, it works, but I'm looking to upgrade it.
My peer is selling two guns, both in good condition, both with iron sights.
I took them to the range and I liked them both.
-- Browning Medalist, made in Belgium back in 1959. The barrel seems to be just under 6''.
-- High Standard Supermatic Citation, 7.25'' barrel.

Browning has a perfect ergonomic and balance, and I love handling it.
Hi-Standard sits well in the hand, it is extremely accurate, but it's heavier.
Magazines for Browning from what I see are more expensive and I don't know anything about parts, should I replace anything later.

I am also concerned with mounting red-dot.
Browning has a flat rib on the top of the barrel, maybe I can find a raiser or just drill this rib and screw a pic rail to it?
With Hi-Standard my only option might be to drill and tap the barrel. Not sure if this is OK to do.

I'd appreciate any help with this.
Thanks, guys.


Need help with choice of guns - Page 2 Browni11
Need help with choice of guns - Page 2 Hi-sta11


Last edited by Mike 2245 on Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:33 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Adding Images)

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Post by Zipp0 Tue Jan 16, 2024 10:12 am

Take a look at the Pardini trigger adjustment options:  https://www.pardiniguns.com/adjusting-the-sp-hp-mechanical-trigger/ there is a reason all 25m ISSF shooters. use them.

The K12 AP is a fabulous pistol too.

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Post by JpsIII Tue Jan 16, 2024 11:04 am

Please do not buy the Browning if you intend to destroy it with holes; it is already a beautiful collectors' firearm. Likewise for an early High Standard/Hamden Victor, etc.; there are many of these on the market, used, that are likely to have been well-treated. BUT you already have an upgraded Ruger:  Put on a medium-good dot sight (small/adjustable red-dot size, like an ultradot) and shoot away!  Think of how many bricks of CCI standard velocity that your Pardini money can buy!   Or, the elegant solution: learn to focus on the front sight and become the best iron-sight shooter in your league.   --jps

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Post by MarkThomas Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:30 pm

I too am a newbie.  I considered a wide selection of firearms and was extremely lucky to cross paths with someone who introduced me to air pistol.  One short session shooting his Steyr LP10, and it was obvious.  I paid $2400 for a new Steyr EVO10, a scuba tank, and 5000 pellets to get started.  That's a pretty steep startup cost, but man oh man. talk about a sweet piece of precision.  The 5 pellet test target at 10 meters grouped smaller than the X ring.  I mean every part of all the holes fit inside the X ring.  I don't know how many firearms will do that.  

Ammo costs $0.017 per pellet.  It costs $9 to get the scuba tank filled at the dive shop.  A tank is supposed to be good for 50 refills of the pistol cylinder, and a pistol cylinder is supposed to be good for 150 shots (someone correct me if those numbers are wrong).  So it costs eighteen cents of air to shoot 150 pellets that cost $2.55.  Compare that to even cheap .22 ammo.

But be forewarned, some of the firearm shooters will look down their nose and scoff at air pistol.  I guess they think they are for kids because they won't shoot through walls.  Who wants to shoot through walls anyway?  The Olympics seems to think they are OK.  It's all about making that little .177" hole in the center of target.  That's all it is about.  The pistol is capable of putting every shot completely inside the X ring.  So anything outside that, I figure, is on me.  And the very best part: it's quiet.  No BOOM, crack, BOOM for a headache.  Just pop, pop, pop.

The pistols you put up pictures of are certainly pretty.  But check out the attached, and tell me it isn't beautiful.
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Post by Bob Fleming Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:45 pm

Ammo is by far the biggest expense. There are only two kinds of 22 pistols.
Those rated for the cheap high velocity bulk ammo and those rated only for the milder standard velocity ammo. When I first started shooting in the 890s with my Browning Buckmark I rewarded myself with a brand new Hammerli 208s. The 208s was my favorite pistol for many years but eventually sold it due to the extra cost of the match grade ammo it needed. My personal best with the Hammerli was only 2 points higher than the Buckmark but the Hammerli was more consistent.
The 208s was an absolute pleasure to shoot but my scores did not justify it. I had high hopes of breaking 2670 with it but that never happened.
So, that became my expensive and unsuccessful little story about trying to buy points.

IF you have the money then spend it on more ammo. There is no shortcut to success in this game. You have to put in your time properly training to make meaningful improvements in your score.

Buy both of those pistols! Any well respected target pistol is a great investment.

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Post by Foundryratjim Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:49 pm

I just got this at the beginning of this year and I really like it. I have 400 rounds through it so far and have not had any problems.
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Post by Smokey99 Tue Jan 16, 2024 12:54 pm

JpsIII wrote:Please do not buy the Browning if you intend to destroy it with holes; it is already a beautiful collectors' firearm. Likewise for an early High Standard/Hamden Victor, etc.; there are many of these on the market, used, that are likely to have been well-treated. BUT you already have an upgraded Ruger:  Put on a medium-good dot sight (small/adjustable red-dot size, like an ultradot) and shoot away!  Think of how many bricks of CCI standard velocity that your Pardini money can buy!   Or, the elegant solution: learn to focus on the front sight and become the best iron-sight shooter in your league.   --jps

BME PIC mount simply clamped (pic style) to the Browning rail. No holes, no mess.

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Post by Rocambole Tue Jan 16, 2024 2:46 pm

If I were you, I would most certainly keep the Ruger and add a Volquartsen lower as well as the Tandemcross flat trigger, just filing off the edges a bit. It is a brilliant gun with parts galore, and you will retire with it.

Then, admittedly, it's a question of what you want the 22LR for. For plinking and targetshooting, the Ruger is fine, if you want to get into serious target shooting, like competitions or so, then at  least take a look at Feinwerkbau AW93 or the new Walther GSP500. Especially the Walther will be easy getting parts to, should you ever need them. They both have brilliant sights, even incorporating width adjustment of the rear sight. Pardinis are all over the place in competitions, but the experience all around in our clup is that they are not altogether all that easy on their diet.

Me, I will mention that I have the Feinwerkbau and the Walther GSP500 in 32 S&W long, and will be getting the 22LR conversion for it, as I am very pleased with the balance and the trigger. I did have a Ruger MkIV Target, but the angle and balance didn't quite suit me, so I'll be getting a 22/45 Light and put some fancy stuff on it for fun and as an extra backup at competitions. My personal best at target shooting is with a Ruger Mk II, and I know of several clubs where the champs shoot old Rugers. It's all about who is standing behind, unless you are already world class.

My respect for the other guns that you are discussing, but what with their age and the spare part supply, I would personally steer clear of them, just like most of us do with old cars for every day use. And admittedly, the question you have is very similar to the Audi-BMW question, and we will all be human and recommend what we personally like the best. But  TargetPistolGuy has a brilliant point: go for what you like the best, and then, if you discover one day that you like something better, then act on that. You are not marrying the gun.

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Post by Nickster Tue Jan 16, 2024 4:46 pm

I would put a WTB on this and maybe other forums for another HS barrel that's been drilled and has the scope mount on it. Probably a bunch of them out there. Then you can shoot the scope or irons at any time by swapping out the barrel and you haven't degraded the value of the pistol. Or check out the LSP barrels. I wouldn't use the Browning for all the reasons already given.  Just my 2 cents.

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Post by Star loader Tue Jan 16, 2024 5:57 pm

After reading all of these post I did not see a mention of the Smith and Wesson model 41 . I shot my best scores with one , on a good day I could shoot it in the 890's

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Need help with choice of guns - Page 2 Empty I'm flattered :)

Post by Mike 2245 Fri Jan 19, 2024 9:43 am

RoyDean wrote:Chiz, mate, whilst your sentiments are, given a "level playing field", quite correct. But, you are still rather young. Most of the punters on this forum are even older than me! So. Older shooters, generally, struggle with iron sights, even with the very best corrective glasses, etc.

There are, of course, super-humans in the game, my pal John Zurek, already 60, grip like Jack Reacher and eyesight like a hawk!

But most of us are mere, or even lesser, mortals. Older folks, if they are just starting out, should develop their fundamentals with a competent red dot 22 (e.g. Ruger 22/45 with a trigger and dot). Then, once they are keeping everything in the black, experiment with a similar iron sight gun (with appropriate corrective glasses if needed).

Voila!

Hi, RoyDean. I'm sorry if I misled you somehow, but while an inexperienced shooter I am a septuagenarian.
I wish I had better eyes, but I love shooting all I have - .22, 9mil, 1911/.45 and 12 gauge tactical shotgun.
Ruger Mark-IV was fine for a year, but now, despite of my mediocre scores I want something else.
Trying different things I came to appreciate a heavier gun and a grip with thumb-swell.

This forum gave me a lot to think about, thank you!

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Need help with choice of guns - Page 2 Empty So much good info!

Post by Mike 2245 Fri Jan 19, 2024 9:46 am

I want to thank everyone who chimed in on my post, this is a lot of good information and I am very grateful to all you guys!

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Post by rich.tullo Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:37 am

I would spend some money on the Ruger: the VQ Bolt will help a lot with reliability. Shim the locking block, The Mark IV does not need much just a couple .001's. Install a VQ trigger and if you want to go crazy get a VQ sear, prep the frame, extractor, and shim the trigger if necessary, change the iron sights. All in spend about $400 and 3 hours time, but the gun will get you to Master no problem. 

The biggest cost is the bolt but they help a lot with reliability on the MK IV.
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Post by Washed Up Newbie Fri Jan 19, 2024 11:31 am

rich.tullo wrote:I would spend some money on the Ruger: the VQ Bolt will help a lot with reliability. Shim the locking block, The Mark IV does not need much just a couple .001's. Install a VQ trigger and if you want to go crazy get a VQ sear, prep the frame, extractor, and shim the trigger if necessary, change the iron sights. All in spend about $400 and 3 hours time, but the gun will get you to Master no problem. 

The biggest cost is the bolt but they help a lot with reliability on the MK IV.

I’m curious about shimming the locking block. I have 6 MKIVs and some are definitely tighter than others as far as upper and lower fit. What is the process for shimming that?

I’ve had pretty good luck with the VQ trigger kits. Shimming the trigger definitely helped with drag against the frame.

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Post by Mike 2245 Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:33 pm

bruce martindale wrote:If you’re a new shooter, and under 45 with good eyes, I would encourage use of iron sights. You can learn a lot about trigger from iron sights….

You can also get computer or shooting glasses that are focused at 36”
Ah, I wish I were, but I'm way beyond 45. 
But it gave me a great pleasure shooting the 7.2'' barrel with iron sights, this was awesome!
Could you elaborate on the 36'' shooting glasses, please? I have no idea what it is.

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Post by Mike 2245 Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:48 pm

Thanks, everyone, I took a lot of good things from this thread.
In the end I bought both guns - The FN-150 and the High Standard.
I am still going through the headache of fixing the things that don't work well, magazines for one is a big problem. But I am almost there and making good progress with fixes and upgrades.

I bought a TRUGLO mounting plate which almost fit on the Medalist' rib. After some tinkering I mounted a red-dot without drilling or modifying this gun in any way. 
I also bought an LSP drilled and tapped barrel for High Standard, which allowed me to save its  beautiful 7.2'' fluted barrel so I can enjoy iron sights when I feel like that. I invested more than I thought, and probably more than I should have, but I really enjoy these guns, and I shoot better too. There's nothing wrong with Ruger, but I will be selling it soon.

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Post by CrankyThunder Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:33 am

The answer to your dilemma is simple!

buy both firearms, put a red dot on the high standard, and go out and shoot em.
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Post by Mike 2245 Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:56 am

CrankyThunder wrote:The answer to your dilemma is simple!

buy both firearms, put a red dot on the high standard, and go out and shoot em.

This is exactly what I did Smile

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