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Roll trigger......

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kc.crawford.7
DavidR
Al
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Roll trigger...... Empty Roll trigger......

Post by gitkrunk Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:47 am

How do you shoot this thing in slow fire?? I have seen why people like them for timed/rapid I even shot it almost as well as my glass rod trigger.  I can't for the life of me shoot this thing in slow.  I've given it 2 weeks and few hours of dry firing and hundreds of rounds down range....
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Post by Rob Kovach Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:55 am

I prefer the roll in slow fire.  Get the trigger moving first then center the sights.  If the sights moved when you started moving the trigger then you don't have your grip or trigger finger placement quite right.

I make the trigger move quite slowly.  Moving the trigger really settles out the sights right before it breaks.
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Post by john bickar Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:05 am

LOL get on it.

Sounds like you sit around waiting for a glass trigger to break.

With a roll trigger I start mashing as I come into the aiming area and keep mashing until boom.
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Post by gitkrunk Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:22 am

Maybe that it john lol. I guess I like the feel of a  non roll trigger I keep pressing and nothing happens till boom
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Post by Jerry Keefer Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:17 pm

gitkrunk wrote: I guess I like the feel of a  non roll trigger I keep pressing and nothing happens till boom

Don't feel bad.. I know more than several very high level shooters that still like and shoot the crisp breaking trigger. I will restrict my comments regarding 1911 roll triggers..  Neutral  Neutral   
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Post by gitkrunk Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:31 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:
gitkrunk wrote: I guess I like the feel of a  non roll trigger I keep pressing and nothing happens till boom

Don't feel bad.. I know more than several very high level shooters that still like and shoot the crisp breaking trigger. I will restrict my comments regarding 1911 roll triggers..  Neutral  Neutral   
Jerry


Jerry since I had the trigger job done with a roll can it be made into a crisp with out having to replace all the trigger parts?
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Post by Jon Eulette Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:14 pm

Yes you can normally use same parts. Sear is re-stoned for crisp trigger pull. A short roll is really nothing more than controlled repeatable CREEP.

Jon
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Post by gitkrunk Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:20 pm

Thanks Jon, I just can't get used to the creep.
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Post by Steve B Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:22 pm

gitkrunk wrote:Thanks Jon, I just can't get used to the creep.

gitkrunk,
I'd like to further explain the benefit behind the roll trigger, not being a Master or HM just take my comments for what they're worth.  With a crisp you must build pressure on the trigger until the sear releases from the hammer, hopefully with no perceptible movement.  With a roll you're moving and can feel the smooth (should be anyways, not creepy) engagement between the sear and hammer.  With practice you will know exactly when the trigger will break due to it's position.  So, when shooting a long 270 shot match my finger is better attuned to the trigger break being dependent on it's position rather than the pressure my finger exerts.  I, probably like most shooters, get tired during these matches and have found that a crisp trigger feels heavier the further you go.  Whereas with a roll you can FEEL where the trigger is at prior to discharge because of its position.  Make sense?
Secondly, a properly made roll trigger doesn't have any creep, meaning the gritty spots you might feel when trying to release the sear from the hammer.  My roll triggers are perfectly smooth.  When correctly actuating this type of trigger the perceived wobble of the red dot is greatly reduced.  But, the downside is you must keep the trigger moving rearward which was explained in the beginning of this thread.

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Post by gitkrunk Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:50 pm

Thanks for the input Steve. I have faith in the smith that did the work. I might bring it back and have him make it a little less of a roll. Short roll trigger? Unfortunately I have never shot a 2700 or any bullseye match. Not a league where I live I just shoot my hardball gun and if my work schedule is timed right I shoot in the OKC cmp games. Last year was my first EIC and lucky for me this year will be my second.
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Post by Jerry Keefer Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:10 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Yes you can normally use same parts. Sear is re-stoned for crisp trigger pull. A short roll is really nothing more than controlled repeatable CREEP.

Jon
 Smile  Smile  Wink
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Post by Jerry Keefer Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:45 pm

More on this.. Chuck Warner and I conspired a couple of years ago, on cutting the sear at a perfect radius measured from the sear pin center line.. .404 is the desired number. This was Chucks idea. It took 100 years to figure this  out, but Chuck did and it works..He and I both invested big $$$ in precision Master Grinds and Harig fixtures to cut the sears on that perfect radius.  Without the proper measuring and grinding equipment, everything else is a guesstimate. Chuck offers  precut sears for sale, and small hand fixtures to stone the radius. The benefit of the radius, is the sear neither lefts or drops the hammer as it slides smoothly out of engagement with the hammer hooks. It makes getting the controlled smooth creep of the roll trigger somewhat easier.  I would like to have 10 cents for every hour of futile work done on 1911 triggers in quest of the " Roll Trigger" or any other, for that matter .. The 1911 trigger system is ill designed  in regard to developing a true target trigger. We do the best we can with what we have... but it will never be a true target trigger, without major design changes, which I don't see as practical.  I have never heard much complaint about High Standard or S&W 41, triggers.  Excellent true crisp breakers..
Jerry
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Post by Jon Eulette Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:54 pm

Jerry,

I'd like to point out that the High Standard and Model 41 are typically 2lb triggers that are much more forgiving to shoot as crisp trigger with than a 3.5lb .45 trigger. Also as a pistol smith I come across a lot (most) of pistols with what I like to call a liability trigger job. It'll hold 3.5 lbs (crisp or roll), but it takes an act of God for it to go bang! A trigger job that has minimum safe/correct engagement that breaks fast is desireable. So in my opinion if it's a poorly done liability trigger, the shooter will struggle to achieve higher scores because they're fighting the trigger. I see a lot of experts who have a decent hold, but they fail when applying trigger pressure. Bad trigger equals Bad scores! Even many of the Euro pistols have triggers that could/should be adjusted to break better shots. In February I had an opportunity to dry fire a trigger job done by KC Crawford with that trigger/sear set up you just described. Very Nice Pull! As I'm sure it was said long before i came along, "I'd rather shoot a pistol with a great trigger and average accuracy, than a pistol with a bad trigger and superb accuracy." Trigger pull wins the match Smile

Jon
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Post by Jerry Keefer Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:20 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Jerry,

I'd like to point out that the High Standard and Model 41 are typically 2lb triggers that are much more forgiving to shoot as crisp trigger with than a 3.5lb .45 trigger.

Jon
 Yes, that's true.
What also helps is the 41 & HS  triggers pivot/swing as opposed to the 1911 slider, that pushes the sear out of engagement. There is no mechanical advantage with the 1911 to assist the shooter..
The pivoting triggers with transfer bars that pull the sear out of engagement can run more engagement pressure for reliability/safety, and still feel great to the shooter.
Reminds me.. I once worked for a very talented young buck, who won many matches in BE and set some big records in PPC.. I would ask him, how he wanted his triggers.??  His answer.." I don't care as long as it will pass inspection.. I just pull the damn thing.." Broke my heart when he left the game.. Crying or Very sad
Jerry  Smile
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Post by Al Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:51 pm

Jerry,
After reading your explanation of how the roll trigger sears are cut, a question popped into my feeble but active brain.

Do you sell a roll sear/hammer set?  I'd love to get a good one on one of my wad guns and on my Marvel.

There's been comments on how long & CREEPY the long roll trigger is.  Yes, You're right they are.  But remember if you don't know when it will break you're forced to continue applying steady movement to the rear.  That makes you put more attention on your trigger & perhaps a bit less on the dancing dot.  As was also mentioned, better to have a great trigger and mediocre accuracy than great accuracy & a poor trigger.  I wholeheartedly concur.
Al


PS: This is one of the best roll trigger threads I've read!

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Post by Jerry Keefer Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:10 pm

Al wrote:Jerry,

Do you sell a roll sear/hammer set?  I'd love to get a good one on one of my wad guns and on my Marvel.

PS: This is one of the best roll trigger threads I've read!
Hello Al;
No,  I do not sell the TR sears , hammer sets, or stoning fixture. 
Warner Custom Pistols in Arizona is the designer.  Chuck Warner
 John Harrison of Harrison Design is or was also marketing them for Chuck.
Chuck is working feverishly to move into a larger, modern machining facility, so John Harrison may presently be the best source.
Jerry
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Post by Al Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:02 pm

thanks Jerry.
Al

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Post by DavidR Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:22 pm

The  TR gig and sear are also available from brownells.
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Post by kc.crawford.7 Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:56 pm

Well I guess it's time for me to open my mouth.  My partner and I have developed a new hammer with different geometry on the hooks to help get that roll trigger feel.  We are currently finishing up a sear to achieve a very soft yet surprising release of the hammer.  The hammers are available now and we have nicknamed them the "battleaxe" because of the shape of the spur.
If you're interested in the hammer drop me a line and I'll be more than happy to fill you in.
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Post by xmastershooter Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:21 pm

Thank you Jerry Keefer for your part in the development of the TR sear.  This sear has provided the best trigger feel for my 1911.  I don't know if it was designed this way, but as I increase my trigger pull, the sight picture stabilizes before the roll engages.  It appears the roll begins just at the right moment before the shot goes off.  Under a microscope, the sear is well machined and highly polished.  Upon speaking with Chuck Warner, he credited you for your help with this sear.  I believe his new location is in New Mexico.

Norman

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Post by Jerry Keefer Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:01 pm

xmastershooter wrote:Thank you Jerry Keefer for your part in the development of the TR sear.  This sear has provided the best trigger feel for my 1911.  I don't know if it was designed this way, but as I increase my trigger pull, the sight picture stabilizes before the roll engages.  It appears the roll begins just at the right moment before the shot goes off.  Under a microscope, the sear is well machined and highly polished.  Upon speaking with Chuck Warner, he credited you for your help with this sear.  I believe his new location is in New Mexico.

Norman
Hello Norman;
Hope you are well..
Thank you, but, without Chuck , it might never have happened... He's thinking of building a few bullseye guns..We need more BE gun builders. He assisted me several years ago, with advice in designing a gun for my woman shooter, after she suffered major accumulative recoil injuries to her right arm. She now shoots lefty.. It's more or less a speed game race gun, which Chuck has extensive experience  building .. it's  low recoiling, flat shooting, with a lightened slide..optics on the frame ala David Sams style, and she opened the season  Saturday with a 2587..SmileSmile
Jerry
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Post by 243winxb Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:21 pm

A pull through trigger, used by the Russians, was in an American Rifleman magazine back in the 60's or 70's. The trigger weight was light with a long travel. I remember doing a Ruger 44 mag  that way. Great trigger. No weight stacking.
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Post by sixftunda Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:33 pm

I like the roll trigger for slow fire but am still getting used to it in sustained. 

For me the key is to not pull it slow.  As I lower the dot down the target, I begin pulling the trigger as soon as the dot enters the black.  What I tell myself is: "Trust your finger.  The dot is just a guide."
Unless my dot is way out of whack (like on the edge of the black or outside of it), I keep pulling the trigger.  When I am having trouble I can almost always trace it back to pulling the trigger too slow.
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Post by 172snowhawk Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:28 am

Sixftunda: After using a crisp trigger for many years with no significant improvement post elbow and eye problems, I will try a roll trigger with a faster pull. I used to have success pulling a crisp trigger faster but that doesn't seem to work anymore. 
After following your posts, I believe I scored you for the NRA matches at Perry last year. Good to hear you're doing well with your shooting.

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