Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

The most important thing, to me, is that CMP and NRA stay together. I don't want to shoot the NRA matches one place, pack up and move and then shoot the CMP matches someplace else. I might do it some years, but most years I will pick one.

I will continue to shoot the National Championships. If that means standing in the middle of a muddy field, if they use electronic targets, if they move to another location, so be it.

It is possible the coming changes will spoil the special nature and camaraderie of the National Championships. It is also possible the changes will give us more time for socializing and more fun events. I sincerely hope it is the latter.

Brian, I can see the CMP spending money on Rifes E-targets at Perry. It is Rifle range, and a damn fine one at that. In my opinion, Perry is not a pistol range. For a national event today, we should not be competing on a temperary range, built to be used for one week a year, in the middle of a field. Buying 3 million$ worth of untested electronics and putting them in open environment doesn't sound like a good idea. To facilitate these new targets, how many other changes have to be built into the rifle ranges? And will that compremise the primary use of the range itself?
I would think that the CMP would love having All there Matches there, as their primary prepose is to premote the shooting sports.
As to the amount of people needed to run the match, that would be up to Dennis and Jake to work out. I do believe Cardinal could save both the NRA and the CMP a significant amount of money

The shotgun matches at Cardinal dwarf Perry pistol in number of partcipants and vendor row is like a shopping mall. As I understand it Cardinal owns their own excavation, construction, gravel companies so building the range is easy for them.
Cardinal should be available for leagues, matches and practice for many disciplines through the year, not just nationals.

As shooters we should ask if they can host a conference call to address shooters questions directly.

I have shot on the computer targets and would not want or like them for a one time deal at nationals. The expense of these targets will come from the shooter in the end.

I am for whatever facility will attract more new shooters.  I see merits to both.  Maybe have Nationals move every year?  I know there was discussion to hold out west at last year's Competitors Meeting.  I do not mind traveling.  Just really, really like Bullseye.

Chip

I'm wondering why the NRA staff is so big that it would take up most the housing at Cardinal. With the computer system talked about here, it seems it would take much fewer staff. Even at Perry, I see golf carts all over with staff sitting in them, hard to believe they are all necessary.

I have an RV, just a travel trailer, that I would use if matches were moved. Also, shooters could rent one, or pick up a used one for little money.

Its quite a bit farther than Perry for me, but it sounds good. Not a big deal either way, I have nothing against ETs, have shot rifle on them, probably more accurate than a human can score.

Cardinal is 1 hour 45 min south of perry Ken
Take a look at this...
https://youtu.be/D8IALa6fzvI

Here is another...
https://youtu.be/QCqJEoJ_Zyc

If we're blue-skying (which, let's admit it, we are if we're talking about electronic targets at Camp Perry), it sure would be nice if the "national" championships occasionally would be held someplace where the other half of the country's population lives within a day's drive.

Yeah, Camp Perry was an awesomely convenient location when I lived in Canton, Ohio, but it kinda sucks as a permanent location for anyone who lives west of the Mississippi. Same goes for Columbus (sorry, Cardinal Center).

There are many reasons why I haven't been to Perry in the past 15 years, but geography has often been the biggest one.

I agree with John. It would be nice to have the Nationals move to a more central location than Ohio. Maybe Nebraska or Colorado.  Or move them between 3 or more locales on a rotation basis.

I have no idea if there will be a cost savings if the championship was moved to Cardinal.  I have not been given a lease rate for either Cardinal or Camp Perry so have no financial data to work with and compare.

Just because you someone sitting on a golf cart does not mean they are not working or not needed.  The golf cart is nothing more than a tool to help those staff navigate the expanse of the ranges within a reasonable amount of time.  The Chief Referee might be sitting in his golf cart, but looking up something in the rule book to resolve an issue.  The Range Director might be completing the daily paperwork required by OHNG.  If it's me, I'm probably out BSing with competitors.

Although it might be nice to move the championships around the country, and a couple of disciplines already do this, it is very difficult due to the size of the facility needed.  I might be able to do something at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, NM but I am unaware of any other facility that can handle such an event.  Even at the Whittington Center the championship would have to be an invitational where attendance could be limited because they only have 100 targets.  However, they are also looking at moving to electronic targets.

Besides, look at the controversy that's being created when we are even considering moving the championship a mere 90 miles.  Camp Perry is near and dear to many competitors, many of whom would never want the championships to change or move. 

The CMP's position would be to stay at Camp Perry.  I think that I can accurately answer that without even asking them.  This year the Smallbore Committee voted to keep the Smallbore Championships in Bristol, Indiana.  This means that Camp Perry events will end earlier than usual.  CMP has decided to host an additional five days of events after NRA's departure to insure Camp Perry has a full schedule.  In my talks with them I have learned that they are extremely dedicated to Camp Perry.  My guess is that they would continue to host National Trophy Matches at Camp Perry.

Please keep in mind that I am not advocating for either place.  I have given you lots of information about Cardinal Center because most of you know little about it.  But if you wanted to move away from electronic targets, the Cardinal Center is the finest facility that you can go to.

There are lots of details that will need to be worked out, many of which I simply cannot do at this time due to lack of information.

One thing I am aware of though is there is a huge move to go to electronic targets.  Almost every week I am being told of another range making such a move.  Most involve High Power targets at this time, but I was told at Canton last year that they too are looking toward upgrading their facilities to electronic targets.  Like it or not, the electronic target wave is moving our way.  How soon it will fully envelop pistol competition remains to be seen.

Regardless of what decision is made, changes are forthcoming, which brings us back to the original question.

Camp Perry and electronic targets, all else remains the same; or Cardinal and turning targets, all else changes.

Denny

I am fairly new to Bullseye. While I would like to shoot in our National Championship;
All I have heard since I started this sport is how terrible it is at Perry. From broken target systems, the pictures of folks standing in ankle deep mud and youtube videos of people shooting in the pouring rain and being blown over in the wind it appears to confirm poor condtions. I have had zero interest in going to Perry. I have no interest in using  my hard earned vacation to travel long distance to subject my self and my expensive equipment to poor conditions. Conditions, I might add, that I do not shoot in at any of the 5 ranges I currently travel to shoot at during the year. Yes I shoot in rain and wind but nothing close to what one appears to have to endure at Perry. To me the"Perry Experience" is not a relaxing recreational activity.

You can call me soft, prissy, uninformed, missing the whole point of Perry ect but I simply have no interest in going. In visiting with other folks I am not alone in my opinion. I know people who have gone and will not go back.

 I am, however very interested in going if the National Matches are moved to the Cardinal facility. This facility looks like a place I would enjoy shooting at. I drive 2-3 hours routinely to shoot weekend matches where I live.  The drive from the hotels to the range is not a big issue to me.

When you really look at the quality of the facility, and the fact that this is supposed to be the NATIONAL Championships, the premier pistol event in the country, it seems like a no brainer to move it to Cardinal.  The electronic target thing seems to be wanted by almost no competitors and frankly seems so suspect in it's heavy sales pitch that someone is probably getting paid off.

The real answer is which would attract more and new competitors, the answer is undoubtedly Cardinal.

I have been to Perry seven times over the years and enjoyed the experience in spite of the Spartan conditions and facilities.  If going again I would choose Cardinal hands down.

I am for electronic targets if they can work as advertised.  The pluses outweigh the minuses for me.  
Are the electronic targets like the 25m rapid fire where a light comes on you move from the ready position ?  If so I am for that as well.  
The sport needs to evolve to bring more shooters to the sport, and adapt to new technologies all while preserving the history of the sport.

ccjake86 wrote:Just to recap and confirm what Dennis and Dane have already posted; The Cardinal Center is located 20 minutes from the north side of Columbus, right off interstate 71. You can be at the facility in roughly 40 minutes from Port of Columbus Airport. The Cardinal Center is one of the largest privately owned facilities in the country. We host 3 of the 5 largest trap shoots in the country based on championship event entrants. We have two 12 unit vendor buildings, with plans for a third, directly behind the trap line. Our sporting clays facility is comprised of two 14 station courses, a 5-Stand, and a full service clubhouse. We are planning to begin construction of a third sporting course this winter. Our campground consists of 500+ RV sites, 29 cabins (4 of which are handicapped accessible), a 400 person (seated) banquet hall, an indoor pool, a seperate building that can seat close to 300, and a 24 private unit bath house.

Not only does the Cardinal Center work with industry manufacturers to execute the highest quality competitive events, we also work with local accommodations to provide our shooters with the best rates possible. Within a 20 minute drive of the facility there 1000+ hotel rooms and at least 150 restaurants.

I look forward to entertaining any questions you may have.

Jake Spengler
Shooting Sports Operations Manager
Cardinal Shooting Center

Does anyone have a list of the condos within 30 minutes or so of Cardinal.  My internet searches have not turned up any vacation condos, just the yearly rental type.  My wife and I are not interested in spending a week in a hotel room, regardless of the price, nor are we interested in renting an RV at Cardinal.

I suggest that Cardinal host several two and three day bullseye events, maybe as many as six or eight, before attempting to host the National Pistol Championship.  This would give Cardinal, the NRA and the shooters plenty of time to sort things out.

farmboy wrote:I am fairly new to Bullseye. While I would like to shoot in our National Championship;
All I have heard since I started this sport is how terrible it is at Perry.

My first trip to Camp Perry(2004) I was shocked that we would shoot "The National Championships" in the middle of a glorified cow pasture. Now, after 12 trips there, I have great affection for it. "The National Championships" are unlike any other competition. That said I won't cry if we get covered, concrete shooting positions that are closer to parking or electronic targets. I am glad my first year at CP wasn't a mud year, but I probably would have come back again. Usually rain is not a big factor and the wind is fair since most people you are competing against are shooting at the same time.

If you haven't shot CP you gotta come in 2016! It might be the last year to have the same experience as Harry Reeves, Bill Blankenship, Don Hamilton, Hershel Anderson et. al.

I like electronic targets and I would like to see them at the National Championships. It is THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS. It should be the best run event of the year. Nevertheless, I love bullseye and will continue participating for the foreseeable future.

I added a Poll so it would be easier to keep up with the yea and the nays.
please add your vote

Thanks David.

I went to Perry for the first time this year. I enjoyed the total experience and plan to go back, but would definitely love to see more consistent firing positions. And something is just not right about having to put pallets on the ground to keep people from sinking in the mud while scoring targets. I would also hate to see the National Championships and CMP get split. Even though they are separate entities and competitions, I think of them as one.

I voted for the Cardinal Center. I would have voted for it even if they were going to e-targets. "If" e-targets are going to be the future of this sport then the most advanced range in the nation should have the most advanced targets. That is JMHO.

Len

OldMaster65 wrote:I voted for the Cardinal Center. I would have voted for it even if they were going to e-targets. "If" e-targets are going to be the future of this sport then the most advanced range in the nation should have the most advanced targets. That is JMHO.

Len

+1

Could the current rifle matches held at Perry be held at Cardinal?
Stan

No, Cardinal does not have sufficient impact area north of the berm for high power rifle.

Can you separate the poll?
-Camp Perry
-Cardinal Center
-Electronic targets
-Paper targets

I'm for the electronic targets, but I'm also for the Cardinal Center building a range with either.

john bickar wrote:If we're blue-skying (which, let's admit it, we are if we're talking about electronic targets at Camp Perry), it sure would be nice if the "national" championships occasionally would be held someplace where the other half of the country's population lives within a day's drive.

Yeah, Camp Perry was an awesomely convenient location when I lived in Canton, Ohio, but it kinda sucks as a permanent location for anyone who lives west of the Mississippi. Same goes for Columbus (sorry, Cardinal Center).

There are many reasons why I haven't been to Perry in the past 15 years, but geography has often been the biggest one.

2500 miles, work, family, time and $$$ keeps me from Perry and Cardinal.

Heck, work, family, and time, often keeps me from Roddy matches 20 miles away.