Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

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Camp Perry or Cardinal Center for future nationals

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Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by DirComp on 11/24/2015, 9:05 am

First topic message reminder :

Good morning all.  I was on this site this morning and read through the questions being asked about the Cardinal Center.  I thought that I would share some things with you and generate some discussion.

Mark Johnson, the COO of CMP, has advised that he will go to his Board of Directors and ask for funding to install electronic targets at Camp Perry that will be suitable to fire High Power, Smallbore, and Pistol.  If approved, the target date for being up and running is for the start of the National Matches in 2017.  The NRA will pay a lease fee to CMP for use of these targets.

I was recently contacted by a representative of the Cardinal Center and asked to commit to going there in 2017.  Cardinal Center will probably use turning targets and paper, just like what we use at Camp Perry now.  I did not commit but left the door open.  I cannot commit to going to a range that currently does not exist.  The target date for the start of the Cardinal Center is the start of the National Matches in 2017.

So now we might be faced with a choice; 1) stay at Camp Perry and shoot on electronic targets; 2) move to Cardinal Center and shoot on turning targets.

Everyone who has shot the National Matches knows what Camp Perry is like so I won't dwell on that.  At Cardinal Center there would be some major changes.  Not in the way the events are fired but in the way you live.  The cabins onsite would likely be taken up by the NRA to house staff, leaving RVs and hotels as the other housing options.  If you elect NOT to rent/bring an RV, hotels become important.  The nearest exit with hotels is 9 miles away and the next exit with hotels is 19 miles away.  I don't consider these distances to be objectionable but you might based on what you are used to.  At Bianchi Cup competitors drive 15 miles one way to the range each day and don't complain about it but this is a major change from the way things work at Camp Perry.  It won't be quite so easy to run back to your room after shooting a morning 900 and then return for the team matches that afternoon.  There is one, and only one, restaurant on site but plenty near the hotels.

The Cardinal Center is a terrific place but will entail some changes by everyone, NRA and competitors, alike.

Kick around the pros and cons and let me know what you think.

Dennis Willing

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by james r chapman on 12/20/2015, 1:35 pm

"waves white flag"
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Danehogle on 12/20/2015, 2:07 pm

I will never surrender .....

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Fire Escape on 12/20/2015, 2:15 pm

I have to ask HOW does training to shoot by a recording of voice commands make it easier to shoot well on E-Targets. The voice commands are really only a reference, if that reference is not synced perfectly with the E-Target 'green light' you may have early or late shots that end up not counting. There are voice commands with turning targets but you shoot when the target is visible or suffer the consequences.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Dr.Don on 12/20/2015, 2:36 pm

I've never had the opportunity of training where turning targets are available.  I have always trained with a recording of voice commands and horn signals.  Before iPhones and Apps I made my own with a mini-cassette recorder.  You know when you are early or late, believe me.  But it's not the same as a turning target and I have to adjust at matches.  It probably costs me some points.  I know single turning target setups are available, but they aren't usable at the public ranges available to me for training.  The club range I belong to has a nice turning target setup, but it is only brought out for matches.  Other times it is locked up to prevent theft/vandalism.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Jack H on 12/20/2015, 2:44 pm

I believe too much is being made about lights vs turn vs buzzer/horn vs "commence fire".

They are all go signals.  Adapt to them.

My beef on e targets is practicality, maintenance, and cost.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Danehogle on 12/20/2015, 2:57 pm

Very true Jack.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by james r chapman on 12/20/2015, 5:38 pm

Cripes, on turning targets I just wait till it's turned.....

and, I like walking down and seeing the holes in the targets, changing centers, and not using white pasters....

I'm to old to worry about being the best, I just want to be better than I was the last time...

hmmmm.... rendeer
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by pistol champ on 12/20/2015, 6:09 pm

I'm going to vote with my actions. I'm not going to go to Camp Perry any more. I will go to the Cardinal Center.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Jack H on 12/20/2015, 8:25 pm

james r chapman wrote:Cripes, on turning targets I just wait till it's turned.....

and, I like walking down and seeing the holes in the targets, changing centers, and not using white pasters....

I'm to old to worry about being the best, I just want to be better than I was the last time...

hmmmm.... rendeer

Couldn't agree more on the above.  Especially the old line. 

I have come close to quitting the whole game due to arthritic left thumb.  Luckilly I shoot righty.  But manipulating even simple things with the left is getting to be a constant pain.  Really.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Froneck on 12/20/2015, 10:21 pm

My training is at a match, I learn more shooting match to match than setting up targets at my club. What I do at the club is work on problems I encountered at a match. So if I ran out of time in rapid fire and shot a few last second skidders I practice that at the club.
 Shooting all local matches on turning targets then going to Perry and trying to compete on a different system will put all those not in range of clubs that have e targets.
 Furthermore I like seeing what I shot, it's a definite indication of what I did.
 However like quite a few here I think the cost of an e target system will be the biggest problem. It's bad enough to have to pay for the CMP match at Perry and have little chance of winning anything. I can see the CMP increasing the match fee to cover the target cost.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Danehogle on 12/21/2015, 7:59 am

And NRA fees to cover the use of the CMP targets for our 2700, DR, HR, and pre-lim day.....


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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 12/21/2015, 9:10 am

I am not opposed to electronic targets and I believe they do have their place within competitive shooting.  Specifically Electronic Rifle targets would greatly enhance that sport.  Conventional pistol or Precision Pistol is a bit different.  I believe that the walk down range to score/repair targets is a significant portion of our sport.  We meet the shooter on either side of us.  We get to rest our shooting arms and mentally regroup for the next course of fire.  Even if the targets could turn and even if they had all the score rings on them I still think that going down range and scoring is what makes pistol shooters more friendly and a social group.  I love the new CMP air gun range.  Great facility but competitions there are not social events.  I don't know the person either side of me and they don't know me.  I miss that portion of the competition when there.  Shooting air pistol sectional at an Ohio club we walked down to switch targets.  I don't remember the names but on my right was a tall guy who could shoot super tight groups with a Morini with an occasional flyer in the white.  3-10's, 1-9 and a 4.  He did that the whole match.  I believe we need the walk down range and the chance to be social.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Froneck on 12/25/2015, 11:47 am

I remember the early days at Camp Perry (my first year was 82) Perry was a very social event the cub picnics and commercial row being a great gathering point. Even the Old Mess Hall was great too serving hundreds of people in a few hours. While there the conversation back ground level was so high I doubt you could here the Cannon if it was fired!
 Not sure who is responsible for the drop in attendance but it seems as if those in charge want to extract as much money from the shooters as possible yet return as little as possible! I'm thinking if there is a serious threat that the Cardinal will take away their cash cow things might change and Perry once again become the place to be for a competition shooter.
 Being that Small Bore was moved, Rifle was moved up. I would have liked to see Rifle stay where it was and Pistol moved later. Simply put it's too early for the Northern shooters, our season just about got going and the National Championship is started.
 I plan on supporting the Cardinal Center and though it's a 5+ hour drive will shoot matches there and hope the competition they offer to Camp Perry will make things better at Perry too!

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by bdutton on 12/25/2015, 1:24 pm

Froneck wrote:I remember the early days at Camp Perry (my first year was 82) Perry was a very social event the cub picnics and commercial row being a great gathering point. Even the Old Mess Hall was great too serving hundreds of people in a few hours. While there the conversation back ground level was so high I doubt you could here the Cannon if it was fired!
 Not sure who is responsible for the drop in attendance but it seems as if those in charge want to extract as much money from the shooters as possible yet return as little as possible! I'm thinking if there is a serious threat that the Cardinal will take away their cash cow things might change and Perry once again become the place to be for a competition shooter.
 Being that Small Bore was moved, Rifle was moved up. I would have liked to see Rifle stay where it was and Pistol moved later. Simply put it's too early for the Northern shooters, our season just about got going and the National Championship is started.
 I plan on supporting the Cardinal Center and though it's a 5+ hour drive will shoot matches there and hope the competition they offer to Camp Perry will make things better at Perry too!
Its a long thread and much has been said about the cost of running the national matches.

The NRA spends between $4-4.5 million for the matches.  about 75% of that money comes from the NRA foundation.  The rest comes from match fees, $60k from the CMP, etc...  So I really don't think that its fair to call the matches a 'Cash Cow' since the NRA and the CMP are not making any money from it.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Danehogle on 12/25/2015, 3:09 pm

Somebody is getting that money. And it is not the competitors.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Wobbley on 12/25/2015, 3:30 pm

Volunteers need to be fed and housed.  Targets etc cost money.  Employees need to be paid.  Equipment needs to be repaired.   As in any enterprise the expenses can be categorized as 50% for labor costs, 30% for materials and 20% for administrative.  There isn't much profit in a shooting match.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/25/2015, 4:10 pm

We understand that Woobley. What we don't understand is why the costs keep going up, disproportionately to the returns.

We don't appreciate that.
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Jerry Keefer on 12/25/2015, 4:55 pm

Danehogle wrote:Somebody is getting that money. And it is not the competitors.

ONG...??? Suspect  Rent to store equipment, set up / tear down expenses..
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by dronning on 12/25/2015, 8:08 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:
Danehogle wrote:Somebody is getting that money. And it is not the competitors.

ONG...??? Suspect  Rent to store equipment, set up / tear down expenses..

+1  this used to be provided, now I'm not sure they even provide the hired help from the base for set up repair and tear down, it probably goes to an outside contractor, who charges the ONG who probably marks it up again for the NRA.

- Dave
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Danehogle on 12/25/2015, 8:53 pm

Thousands of $ per day for a three week set up and a three day teardown

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Mike M. on 12/25/2015, 10:15 pm

After reading this whole thread, I'll throw in a comment from a shooter primarily involved in black powder and International disciplines.

1.  Shooting a National Championship in ankle-deep water is unacceptable.  No other range with such conditions would be considered fit for a Registered match, far less a national championship.  This, not targets, should dominate in my view.

2.  I've shot on electronic targets over in Europe.  They're very, very nice.  Probably the biggest adjustment is the timing.  NRA turning target requirements allow a fairly slow turn, which the top shooters exploit.  They're locked up on the projected center of the target, start the shot release when they pick up motion...and turn a 10 second string into an 11 second string.  The ISSF rules always required a far faster turn rate, and a low ready position.  So there was a lot less complaining...especially from the Olympic Rapid Fire shooters, who needed more time to score than to shoot with paper.

Just some thoughts...

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Outthere on 12/25/2015, 10:42 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:Oh my...Well I have said it from the beginning and I'll say it again..I am totally and completely opposed to changing the format of bullseye by going to an electronic target and scoring system.. Learning to " shoot the turn " is a major part of the game...I do not put any value on nostalgic hut living, or miserable weather. Moving to Cardinal and away for the lake effect weather can only be a plus..A very large number of competitors do not stay on post..
I agree. And I've never stayed on post.

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by ChipEck on 12/25/2015, 10:49 pm

I stayed on base and it was crazy expensive...stayed in hut right next to vender row:-). 

Chip
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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by Schaumannk on 12/25/2015, 11:06 pm

ChipEck wrote:I stayed on base and it was crazy expensive...stayed in hut right next to vender row:-). 

Chip
I think we call that sort of expense "collateral damage".  lol!

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

Post by John B Fowler on 12/26/2015, 6:58 pm

First, Not enough choices, need a third choice, shoot paper at Camp Perry.  CMP needs to investigate a pneumatic system or add more new electric motors. 
Second, Firing line benches are both a safety asset and convenience, who will pay for, build, set them up and take them down at Cardinal? Or will there be 2 target lines one for 25 and one for 50? 
Third, It appears that Cardinal doesn't presently have the land, by either the DoD AR 385-63 range safety standards or the NRA Range Safety Manual to meet the safety danger space requirements for pistol or rifle cartridges used in NM completion without the establishment of extensive berms and an overhead cover system as there are several public highways that would be within the danger space.  Easy to verify this by using the distance measuring function on Google Earth over the Cardinal aerial view.  Existing shotgun distance is easily met as 7 1/2 pellets can't get off the facility even at max elevation.  As an Army officer, AMU Alumni and NRA RSO I would not be able to allow my soldiers to shoot on an unsafe range. 
Fourth, Camp Perry, Ottawa County, Lucas County and Erie County offer a plethora of state parks with camping, beaches, the Liberty Aviation Museum, water parks, Cedar Point, fishing charters, etc. i.e. plenty for families to do during a week at Perry be it Pistol, SB or HP. 
For what its worth, removing one day of NRA pistol (Harry Reeves/Distinguished Revolver) would allow the CMP matches to be fired on Saturday or perhaps using the .45 match day scores to count for the NTI, and .22 scores to count for .22 Distinguished or Junior Distinguished and center fire to count for NRA's Reeves and DR.  Would have to monitor pistols,revolvers and ammunition used but might be worth consideration. And yes I have shot trap at Cardinal with our Mud Creek juniors and it is a great trap facility and campground.
BTW, Sparta closed before this discussion started, Illinois ran out of money (lottery winners get IOUs) and the governing body, ATA cannot afford to run it year round.  If NRA dumps a bunch of money into Cardinal and Bloomberg successfully sues the private owner for whatever reason, there will be no matches there.  Trying to take on the State of Ohio operating under DoD safety guidelines would prove much more difficult. 
The Sad Reality is serious competitors i.e. current NRA classifications are a very very small percentage (perhaps Dennis can give us the total # of individuals) of the NRA's 4.5 million members.  The CMP has actually ponied up and built a real range complex in Talladega and they have a unique charter i.e. safety, juniors and competition that is working well for them.  The National Matches, Bianchi Cup, etc are an inconvenience to the businessmen of the NRA and I suspect Dennis has to fight for every dollar he gets for the program.


Last edited by John B Fowler on 12/26/2015, 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added last paragraph)

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Re: Camp Perry or Cardinal Center

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