And then there is the Long Line

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And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/26/2017, 3:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was thinking that my shooting was coming around.  Groups were looking better indoors at 20yds.  I been shooting 20yd TF/RF targets doing SF only and only trying to keep most in the black and none out of the 8 ring.  That wound meet my expectations for now and would keep me in the high 80s to low 90s if I was keeping score.  Well being a beatiful day here in NE Florida with a mornong low of 43 and the 70s the rest of the day with no wind I headed to the outdoor range to see how I would do on the LL.  Had any of you been there you could have bought 4 nice BE guns cheap.  Rim Fire with the Nelson first target a 31 score with 3 off the paper.  Ok it was time to crack down really think trigger and follow through and just keeping them in the black.  That didn't help so I shot the 52-2 and at least all but one in the 7 ring.   LB 45 was next as I shoot it the best.  I have no idea where those bullets went.   Changed the elevation as it was set for 20yds and put a couple on paper.  Got the sand bag out of the Jeep and fired 5 in the 10 ring with a very nice group.  Now i know it is all me and went home.  Dry Fire a lot more and less range time.  Might have to rethink this BE sport and go back to Bench Rest Pistol which I really enjoy and now have a safe full of guns for it.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Wobbley on 10/31/2017, 8:39 am

USSR wrote:
mikemyers wrote:

Do faster bullets create a smaller group than slower bullets?

Has anyone ever measured the change in bullet speed over distance?  Curious.

Mike,

Think about this.   I test 2 loads using the same components except for using a little more or less of the same powder.   The load with slightly more powder has a muzzle velocity of 800 fps and is producing 2" groups at whatever distance, while the load with slightly less powder has a muzzle velocity of 750 fps and is producing 3" groups at the same distance.   Of course, the lower velocity load could be more accurate than the higher velocity load, this is why we do load development.   There is your answer.

Don
How much powder do you have to add for 50 fps?  Does Velocity variance add to group size?  Does a 2 inch pistol become a 3 inch pistol with 50 fps change?  Or is it other factors?  Perhaps it is a statistical fluke?  

Rifle shooters have known for years that small variances in velocity don’t seem to affect group size that much.  They’ve also known that one tiny group out of several larger groups doesn’t make it the ticket to win matches either.  The rifle has to be consistently accurate.  I’m really not sure pistols and pistol ammunition, particularly centerfire, are ever tested enough to determine what the level of consistency really is.

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/31/2017, 8:47 am

This article covers what we've been discussing and more:
https://gundigest.com/how-to/training/ballistics-initial-bullet-speed

I will start a new thread about this, as it's not what this thread was about.
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by USSR on 10/31/2017, 9:14 am

Wobbley wrote:
USSR wrote:
mikemyers wrote:

Do faster bullets create a smaller group than slower bullets?

Has anyone ever measured the change in bullet speed over distance?  Curious.

Mike,

Think about this.   I test 2 loads using the same components except for using a little more or less of the same powder.   The load with slightly more powder has a muzzle velocity of 800 fps and is producing 2" groups at whatever distance, while the load with slightly less powder has a muzzle velocity of 750 fps and is producing 3" groups at the same distance.   Of course, the lower velocity load could be more accurate than the higher velocity load, this is why we do load development.   There is your answer.

Don
How much powder do you have to add for 50 fps?  Does Velocity variance add to group size?  Does a 2 inch pistol become a 3 inch pistol with 50 fps change?  Or is it other factors?  Perhaps it is a statistical fluke?  

Rifle shooters have known for years that small variances in velocity don’t seem to affect group size that much.  They’ve also known that one tiny group out of several larger groups doesn’t make it the ticket to win matches either.  The rifle has to be consistently accurate.  I’m really not sure pistols and pistol ammunition, particularly centerfire, are ever tested enough to determine what the level of consistency really is.

Wobbley,

The above post was hypothetical to illustrate that small changes used during load development in relation to muzzle velocity can have positive and/or negative results.   Personally, I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out the why, but I will spend a lot of time finding the sweet spot.

Don

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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by mikemyers on 10/31/2017, 11:52 am

(
I started a new thread, so this one can get back to what it was originally about...
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8502-group-size-vs-bullet-speed#70897
)
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

Post by Magload on 10/31/2017, 12:07 pm

USSR wrote:
Wobbley wrote:
USSR wrote:
mikemyers wrote:

Do faster bullets create a smaller group than slower bullets?

Has anyone ever measured the change in bullet speed over distance?  Curious.

Mike,

Think about this.   I test 2 loads using the same components except for using a little more or less of the same powder.   The load with slightly more powder has a muzzle velocity of 800 fps and is producing 2" groups at whatever distance, while the load with slightly less powder has a muzzle velocity of 750 fps and is producing 3" groups at the same distance.   Of course, the lower velocity load could be more accurate than the higher velocity load, this is why we do load development.   There is your answer.

Don
How much powder do you have to add for 50 fps?  Does Velocity variance add to group size?  Does a 2 inch pistol become a 3 inch pistol with 50 fps change?  Or is it other factors?  Perhaps it is a statistical fluke?  

Rifle shooters have known for years that small variances in velocity don’t seem to affect group size that much.  They’ve also known that one tiny group out of several larger groups doesn’t make it the ticket to win matches either.  The rifle has to be consistently accurate.  I’m really not sure pistols and pistol ammunition, particularly centerfire, are ever tested enough to determine what the level of consistency really is.

Wobbley,

The above post was hypothetical to illustrate that small changes used during load development in relation to muzzle velocity can have positive and/or negative results.   Personally, I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out the why, but I will spend a lot of time finding the sweet spot.

Don
My Labradar show on the average there is only 20 to 25 FPS change when changing a power load .1 of a grain.  That's not much but the group size with a RR shows a group size change but not enough to make any difference pistol shooting.  There fore i given up on worrying about that my time is better used for practice as my groups need a lot of shrinking.  Don
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Re: And then there is the Long Line

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