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Trigger Jerk is a Myth.

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Post by funski Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:45 pm

Article by John "Shrek" McPhee on trigger control being a myth.  Just wondering if any of you have read it and have any comments.

Thanks in advance
Jim

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Post by Jon Eulette Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:00 pm

His article primarily is related to shooting two handed in tactical type scenarios. Mechanical breakdown of weak shooter system can definitely allow trigger finger force to move a shot off target.
His article has no relevance to BE shooting.
Trigger finger is everything in our game.
Jon
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Post by zanemoseley Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:04 pm

I've not read it but sounds very false. Call it a snapped shot, flinch, jerk or whatever. There is for sure a known "flinch zone" for most people, in my experience its kind of an ellipse shape, for me being LH'ed its low right and high left, for RH would be low left and right right. Especially in my earlier days I would notice my first mag or two with the 45 after shooting 22 would typically be more uniform then as the recoil anticipation started working on me the flinched shots would start appearing and getting more frequent. 

My favorite is when people (often lower classifications) say they don't flinch, yet for a lot of shooters their 45 score will be 50+ points lower than with a 22. If you've got an accurate 45 shooting a .452" hole it should be the same or maybe even better. Yes it takes more time to get back on target but should not account for such a disparity in scoring especially if you train for RF.

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Post by funski Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:09 pm

Thanks Jon

I totally agree with your comment, in fact I think its important even in two handed shooting and rifle shooting. IMHO certainly not a myth!

Jim

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Post by bruce martindale Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:24 pm

I didn't see his name on the Masters listings....but, many HM shooters are able to make it go when they want, without moving the gun. The rest of us, not so much. That's where advanced advice can hold you back...you have to learn to walk before you can run.

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Post by Pinetree Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:46 pm

I haven't read it myself, but the guys at practice last night were all abuzz about it.

The general consensus was that the advice doesn't apply to Bullseye shooting.


Edit- it's online.


https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/why-trigger-jerk-is-a-myth/
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Post by Dan Webb Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:49 pm

I see what happened here. Shooting Illustrated accidentally edited out Mr. McFee's ending. I sure he intended this article to end with "JK! LOL".

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Post by SteveT Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:07 am

I first posted this on USRifleTeams.com, but thought it applies here too.

First off I agree with him pistol errors are much more complex than the wheel of misfortune makes it seem and what we call "trigger jerk" often includes grip, wrist and even stance errors, especially with newer shooters. 

I completely disagree with the idea that the trigger finger isn't strong enough to move the gun. You only need to move then gun a tiny bit to throw shots off target. My trigger jerk is about a 2-3 inch jump to the right, sometimes more. I have spent a lot of time working on it and I am convinced it is mostly or all in the speed and smoothness of my trigger finger movement, though the true root cause is in my mental process.  

I am very skeptical that you can see trigger jerk on video. How do you get the magnitude and direction of the pressure on the trigger from images? You might be able to see grips tighten and wrists move if the shooter is new or has a really bad "jerk" but that doesn't mean more advanced shooters who have mastered grip don't still have an issue with their trigger pull.
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Post by Merick Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:19 am

I am Shocked! Shocked! that nra magazines would generate an article that is entirely baloney.

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Post by Jon Eulette Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:28 am

SteveT wrote:I first posted this on USRifleTeams.com, but thought it applies here too.

First off I agree with him pistol errors are much more complex than the wheel of misfortune makes it seem and what we call "trigger jerk" often includes grip, wrist and even stance errors, especially with newer shooters. 

I completely disagree with the idea that the trigger finger isn't strong enough to move the gun. You only need to move then gun a tiny bit to throw shots off target. My trigger jerk is about a 2-3 inch jump to the right, sometimes more. I have spent a lot of time working on it and I am convinced it is mostly or all in the speed and smoothness of my trigger finger movement, though the true root cause is in my mental process.  

I am very skeptical that you can see trigger jerk on video. How do you get the magnitude and direction of the pressure on the trigger from images? You might be able to see grips tighten and wrists move if the shooter is new or has a really bad "jerk" but that doesn't mean more advanced shooters who have mastered grip don't still have an issue with their trigger pull.

Magnitude. Beautiful physics word.
I have some pistols with trigger shoes that I intentionally angle the pull to the right. I have shot high 880’s doing this, but I did it consistently. I just like Steve doubt a camera could pick that up.
I have also caught myself during a rapid fire JERKING the living hell out of the trigger because the red dot was trying to imitate Haley’s Comet blazing to the left and low, but I was able to stop the squeeze and correct the shot.

I also agree with Zane about novice shooters saying that they don’t flinch during a shot…..I’ve coached many shooters over the years and eventually everyone will admit they flinched at some point.
Jon
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Post by Wobbley Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:22 am

Can you move a gun with your trigger finger?  The trigger pull is 3.5 pounds.  A typical 45 weighs approximately  2.5 pounds.  Your finger pulling the trigger WILL move the gun.  A jerk will move it uncontrollably.  

Physics is physics


Last edited by Wobbley on Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by chopper Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:58 am

Jon Eulette wrote:
SteveT wrote:I first posted this on USRifleTeams.com, but thought it applies here too.

First off I agree with him pistol errors are much more complex than the wheel of misfortune makes it seem and what we call "trigger jerk" often includes grip, wrist and even stance errors, especially with newer shooters. 

I completely disagree with the idea that the trigger finger isn't strong enough to move the gun. You only need to move then gun a tiny bit to throw shots off target. My trigger jerk is about a 2-3 inch jump to the right, sometimes more. I have spent a lot of time working on it and I am convinced it is mostly or all in the speed and smoothness of my trigger finger movement, though the true root cause is in my mental process.  

I am very skeptical that you can see trigger jerk on video. How do you get the magnitude and direction of the pressure on the trigger from images? You might be able to see grips tighten and wrists move if the shooter is new or has a really bad "jerk" but that doesn't mean more advanced shooters who have mastered grip don't still have an issue with their trigger pull.

Magnitude. Beautiful physics word.
I have some pistols with trigger shoes that I intentionally angle the pull to the right. I have shot high 880’s doing this, but I did it consistently. I just like Steve doubt a camera could pick that up.
I have also caught myself during a rapid fire JERKING the living hell out of the trigger because the red dot was trying to imitate Haley’s Comet blazing to the left and low, but I was able to stop the squeeze and correct the shot.

I also agree with Zane about novice shooters saying that they don’t flinch during a shot…..I’ve coached many shooters over the years and eventually everyone will admit they flinched at some point.
Jon
  Jon, I like your "Haley's Comet" viewpoint, mine is "Laser Tracer". I used to get it in all 3 stages, but now maybe a couple in a match. That trigger is something to master so I thought of it as my friend and treat it with respect and it's starting to give me joy. I put a wedged mainspring housing to help out with my grip and that is starting work so I don't have to squeeze so tightly, wrist still gives me pain. For me it's keeping from squeezing fingers with trigger finger also. So much to learn and it's fun to figure it out.  
 I like your article on the 1 in 13 twist barrels, I might have to go there.
 Thanks to all of you.
 Stan

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Post by CR10X Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:41 am

Once again, just because someone might be somewhat good at one thing does not mean they're an expert at everything.  It does provide them with the opportunity to make money at the expense of those that think they are.  

Welcome to today's world of internet bloggers, influencers, youtubers, media stars, politicians, Et al. 

CR

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Post by Dan Webb Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:05 am

Wobbley wrote:Can you move a gun with your trigger finger?  The trigger pull is 3.5 pounds.  A typical 45 weighs approximately  2.5 pounds.  Your finger pulling the trigger WILL move the gun.  A jerk will move it uncontrollably.  

Physics is physics
Wobbley- I proved everything in your post a moment ago. I just moved my wad gun w/ frame mounted UD (triple checked clear) from my gun safe to my living room using just my trigger finger on the trigger, safety off, and grip safety held down with a rubber-band. Even had an unexpected "jerk" when I stepped on my pup's sharp nylon chew toy on the way. The results? Hammer never fell.

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Post by sbtzc Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:03 pm

I have a lot of experience jerking and I,... uhhh,... errr,...  Embarassed
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Post by Fezzik68 Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:43 pm

Trigger Jerk like a Soda Jerk? Pour me a glass of trigger.

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Post by Froneck Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:48 pm

I can remember when I started shooting.  I was little late in 45 rapid fire, target started to tuns so I jerked one, any hole in a scoring ring is better than none! When scoring I had a skidder in the X ring! Wow I said to myself so the next string I shot all 10 the same way I shot the skidder! I had shots everywhere, none in the X, 10 and 9. One in the 8, if my memory is correct a few out of the scoring rings! It was a lesson I never forgot!
 I've talked to Adam quite a bit and he feels trigger control is one of the most important parts to firing a good shot.

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Post by Jack H Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:38 pm

x


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Post by bruce martindale Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:16 pm

Want to see it? 

Put your gun on a Rika Noptel or a Scatt. Plain as day.

Eric Buljung told me he could jerk 10s all day long. I tend to believe him but under the pretense of my earlier statements regarding HM shooters, and he certainly qualifies.

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Post by Jon Eulette Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:03 pm

bruce martindale wrote:Want to see it? 

Put your gun on a Rika Noptel or a Scatt. Plain as day.

Eric Buljung told me he could jerk 10s all day long. I tend to believe him but under the pretense of my earlier statements regarding HM shooters, and he certainly qualifies.
Sight in for the JERK behind the gun!
Jon
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Post by Froneck Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:12 pm

I can do the same as Eric! Only my problem is I jerk them all out of the 10 ring. 9 and 8 too!

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Post by bruce martindale Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:27 pm

Funny, most times when I buy a used gun, it shoots high right, sighted to compensate for low left jerk habits

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Post by PhotoEscape Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:01 pm

Well, after reading his article, I must say that it is more about gripping the gun than about trigger.  In simple terms, he suggests (my interpretation) that if gun is installed into Ransom Rest, and Ransom Rest is bolted to 2T base and zeroed in, one can jerk trigger all day long and whichever way one wants, - gun will still shoot at the center.  I can agree with that.  And we all know that strong grip is your good friend!  The problem I see with this article is that not everyone can grip gun with the strength of the vise (with one arm or with two arms regardless).  Subsequently concentrating on grip alone while teaching someone to shoot, especially if this someone is civilian and not at the top physical form (desk job, arthritis, etc.), is setting this someone for the failure, IMHO.

AP
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Post by Wes Lorenz Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:35 pm

Does the trigger finger have the strength to overpower the grip of the entire firing hand as it grips the gun?
This article is written to the two handed sport community and LE/military. Watch this Rob Leatham video telling us you don't need to look at the sights, but that doesn't apply to BE also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I.
None of them are shooting one handed/standing static and trying to group 3" at 50yards to score a 10.
I remember Don Nygord telling us all of your fingers can move while griping, especially the little finger and it's a fact.
Our sport is about repeating the same conditions over and over 270 times!!! What could be more frustrating and the reason I love it!
Just my .02

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Post by Froneck Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:26 am

Leatham has been at Perry a few times, I guess Adam got him to come. He can't shoot Bulsleye! He hangs around the AMU trailer. Last I seen he was shooting Marksman class.
 Adam says he would rather shoot a gun that groups 10 ring and has a great trigger than shoot a gun grouping in he X ring with a lousy trigger.
 Trigger control is the key to good shooting.

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