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4 Gun Match - Future Direction

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Post by RoyDean 8/16/2023, 11:52 am

I guess that the concept of a 4 Gun Match was initiated at Cardinal (folks with more historical knowledge than I will now chime in and obfuscate!).

I like that format. Makes perfect sense to me.

It would make the "Ohio Triple Crown" more meaningful if both Canton and Perry were to follow roughly the same format (I do understand that P100 + NTI are prestigious and important events at Perry). No doubt Hendo and Dane are working on that 4 Gun Match - Future Direction 1f60d  4 Gun Match - Future Direction 1f60d 

It would be even better still if the NRA were to adopt a similar approach at Atterbury (but there are a few fossils out there who do not seem to want to see any change or forward looking direction).

Bullseye at club level seems to be dying - that is a pity - if the "Summer Nationals Tour" were able to demonstrate some cohensive new direction possibly that might stimulate some support - rather than the constant bickering and finger pointing from the fossils.

Just sayin!

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Post by Wobbley 8/16/2023, 12:17 pm

4 gun?  I know 3 gun is 22, CF and 45… what is the 4th gun?
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Post by SingleActionAndrew 8/16/2023, 12:30 pm

I think 4th gun should be one of those vodka bottles shaped like a Thompson. If it's CMP SR vs NRA DR we could bring just 2 guns (22 and a 45 revolver) and then have room for TWO bottles!
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Post by RoyDean 8/16/2023, 12:37 pm

Wobbley, pay attention!😜

4th gun is Service Pistol.

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Post by targetbarb 8/16/2023, 7:32 pm

RoyDean wrote:Wobbley, pay attention!😜

4th gun is Service Pistol.
I shot the As-Issued Pistol match at Camp Perry, 40 shots total at 25 yards on B-8 target.  All standing, 10 shots one or 2 handed in 5 min, 10 shots left hand only in 5 min, 10 shots right hand only in 5 min, 10 shots one or 2 handed in 70 seconds.  It was a ton of fun; we have a SA 1911 MilSpec that I used for this match.  [See in our house - there are my guns and then there are our guns.  Laughing ]  The MilSpec 45 is one of "our" guns.

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Post by chiz1180 8/16/2023, 8:38 pm

Roy,
I believe the 4 gun format is how interservice works. Unfortunately many skip the educational opportunities of shooting service pistol.
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Post by SteveT 8/17/2023, 7:14 am

The 4 gun concept isn't new, I remember a few places shooting 4 900's in a match over the years.

I love service pistol, but four 900's in a day would be a really long day so it is limited to multi-day matches.
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Post by RoyDean 8/17/2023, 7:28 am

SteveT, fair comment, I agree that a full 3,600 is too much for a one day event. But it would be nice if the 4 gun is adopted at Canton and Atterbury.

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Post by SingleActionAndrew 8/17/2023, 8:14 am

I shoot my SP for CF and 45, so no worries for me. But do most people have a SP and want to shoot a SP 900?

Also Roy, it was a pleasure to get to shake hands at Atterbury. I apologize I had to run - it was team match time. I look forward to meeting again and spending time together talking bullseye.
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Post by cdrt 8/17/2023, 9:22 am

Just curious, for the NRA to adopt a four gun match, would they have to revise the rule book, to once again, include their definition of a service pistol?  They dropped it a number of year's ago.  Or would they use the CMP's rather nebulous definition and ammo requirements.
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Post by RoyDean 8/17/2023, 11:21 am

Happens that the NRA sent me another Outdoor PP Classification Card - wrong address and wrong info on the card - so I went to the NRA Competition site to check my profile. Then realised that all of my previous match scores are recorded and noticed that for Atterbury (2023 and previous years) the score is for a 3,600.

I then downloaded the match report - see attached - and in fact the NRA already considers Atterbury a 3,600 match.

Now I'm really confused!!
4 Gun Match - Future Direction Nra_at10

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Post by shanneba 8/17/2023, 1:12 pm

And no one hit the X ring!  Smile

The National Championships include the Preliminary Match.

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Post by james r chapman 8/17/2023, 2:22 pm

shanneba wrote:And no one hit the X ring!  Smile

The National Championships include the Preliminary Match.
Never believe all you read on the I-net..
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Post by chiz1180 8/17/2023, 3:10 pm

cdrt wrote:Just curious, for the NRA to adopt a four gun match, would they have to revise the rule book, to once again, include their definition of a service pistol?  They dropped it a number of year's ago.  Or would they use the CMP's rather nebulous definition and ammo requirements.
Somewhat off topic, but I haven’t seen any change in Service Pistol scores since the change to any safe ammo. It actually is funny, I have seen people shoot jacketed long line and  lead short line for a 2700 then shoot straight lead for service. I also have not seen anyone shoot 38wadcutter for service either…

Back to the topic on hand. Regardless of the number of aggregate points, a match aggregate with both open sights and metallic sights is and interesting metric to try and improve.
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Post by Chase Turner 8/17/2023, 7:18 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
cdrt wrote:Just curious, for the NRA to adopt a four gun match, would they have to revise the rule book, to once again, include their definition of a service pistol?  They dropped it a number of year's ago.  Or would they use the CMP's rather nebulous definition and ammo requirements.
Somewhat off topic, but I haven’t seen any change in Service Pistol scores since the change to any safe ammo. It actually is funny, I have seen people shoot jacketed long line and  lead short line for a 2700 then shoot straight lead for service. I also have not seen anyone shoot 38wadcutter for service either…

Back to the topic on hand. Regardless of the number of aggregate points, a match aggregate with both open sights and metallic sights is and interesting metric to try and improve.

Your observation, which is of fact (and not opinion), surely should neuter the complaints of rabble shooters who believe their experience are the only one that counts when stating the opinion that "things are easier now." Of course, it doesn't. Shooters who no longer participate in the matches in question certainly have less standing for complaint, in my view, which I imagine is the larger portion of what gets said here.

Wake me up when someone shoots a 300 with "cheater" ammo. I'll shake their hand as a champion, because that is what they will be.

-Chase

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Post by Wes Lorenz 8/17/2023, 7:58 pm

Chase, I totally agree. The shooters that train....win.
Hard to get service rifle legs in WA due to a great Jr. program.

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Post by SaraiEsq 8/18/2023, 11:54 am

RoyDean wrote:Happens that the NRA sent me another Outdoor PP Classification Card - wrong address and wrong info on the card - so I went to the NRA Competition site to check my profile. Then realised that all of my previous match scores are recorded and noticed that for Atterbury (2023 and previous years) the score is for a 3,600.

I then downloaded the match report - see attached - and in fact the NRA already considers Atterbury a 3,600 match.

Now I'm really confused!!
4 Gun Match - Future Direction Nra_at10

I just realized when I saw this that one could become classified just by shooting all of Atterbury (Prelim/.22/CF/.45).  Or, should one do well, qualify for a change in classification just by shooting all of Atterbury -- since NRA classification is based on the last 360 shots. (I think that's the way the rules read.)

It was just kinda cool to consider, as I am firmly in the Marksman category at present.  :-)
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Post by RoyDean 8/18/2023, 5:59 pm

Well spotted Sara!

If you have not got one already, get one of the little NRA Booklets to record your scores and monitor your progress. Every club should offer them to new shooters, sadly many do not!

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Post by chiz1180 8/18/2023, 6:22 pm

RoyDean wrote:Well spotted Sara!

If you have not got one already, get one of the little NRA Booklets to record your scores and monitor your progress. Every club should offer them to new shooters, sadly many do not!
Sara, if you can’t get a hold of one of the booklets and you want one let me know, I will look at my club to see if we still have some. 

Alternatively a Rite in the Rain No. 773 is a good size to record match scores and relevant happenings, key observations, relevant alibi information (feeding alibi with mag 2), ect. I use one to record my match score as well as another one my reloading information (primer lot, powder charge, bullet, ect.) Nice thing is they are waterproof in case you spill water/coffee on it (yep done that once or twice) or get caught in in-climate weather.
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Post by cdrt 8/18/2023, 9:41 pm

Pretty sure the NRA stopped printing the Temporary Score Books several years ago. The Materials Center website is down right now, so I can't check, but I think with your shooting record available online, that's the reason they stopped printing them.  I have one copy left, that I scanned for one of our shooters.
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Post by SaraiEsq 8/18/2023, 11:30 pm

Thanks, guys!

I have a journal that I record matches and practice notes in. I did pick up a champion's choice score book recently which wasn't formatted the way I expected; currently I am using it to record my scores for a weekly indoor league and it seems to work well.

I also have an Excel spreadsheet for each match where I analyze ... stuff. 😁

With respect to a four-gun format, it could be set up as two 1800 days, right? A single relay would easily be done in a morning (shooting both 900s), while multiple relays would stretch into the afternoon. If there is no break between matches, the two days could look like this: (M-match, R-relay)

Morning: M1R1, M1R2
Afternoon: M2R1, M2R2

Morning: M3R2, M3R1
Afternoon: M4R2, M4R1

I would probably continue to shoot it as a .22 only match.

One possible argument against a four-gun format would be the additional cost in terms of another pistol. I realize lots of folks might shoot CF/.45/SP with the same pistol (right?) but I am thinking also in terms of perception. Since the match "requires" four pistols, it is just that much more "out of reach" for the new shooter.

Now it's time for bed; local 2700 in the a.m.
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Post by chiz1180 8/19/2023, 6:40 am

Sara,
Additional 4gun format in theory gives people good reason to shoot service pistol. I would argue a service pistol is a more affordable entry to CF than a wadgun, as you do not need an optic. You can also have a gun set up such that you can remove the optic for service pistol. So you still could shoot it with 2 guns.

Depending on what other matches (EICs, DR, Prelims, ect.) you could do 2x900s a day but it also depends on participation and range size. I can run an 1800 with 12 people in about 3.5-4 hours, add more people to the mix more alibis, more scoring disputes, ect. One 900 in a day is nice as it allows a good rest period.
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