An oil thread

[jmdavis]

First topic message reminder :

I never expected to be starting an oil thread, here or anywhere else. But I have a problem. 

My 45's have been lubed exclusively with Dillon Snake Oil for years. I ran out a couple of weeks ago and when I was looking to order more this morning, I discovered that it is no longer listed by Dillon. So...

I need a replacement for barrel, slide rail and general use on the 45. What are people using? Last week I tried two different things with vastly different results. 

The night before the State match, I used some Tetraglide on the slide rails and bushing, that was the worst mistake I had ever made. I had two double alibis during the centerfire match in addition to problems in every stage. During the break between CF and 45, I took the gun apart, cleaned the grease using kroil as a solvent and then re-oiled everything with hoppes oil out of the needle tube. It worked fine for the rest of the match. 

So I am looking for suggestions to use specifically for my 1911 bullseye guns. What say ye all?


Mike

[Allen Barnett]

I saw FP-10 being demonstrated years ago at the Master's in Bary. IL.  Is was impressive.  Don't remember the different lubricants they ran against it but they all failed long before FP-10.  Of course I just had to buy some.  Then came my time on the National Guard pistol team and the only oil they would let us use was "National Guard Red Oil', not to be confused with Ed's Red.  Finally after 20 years my 4 ounce bottle of red oil is gone.  After reading the post by igolfat8 I going back to FP-10.

[BaldingEagle]

What are opinions on Gun Butter?  I've used it and it worked fine.

[Sa-tevp]

igolfat8, nice presentation. It had me dig out my Aeroshell handbook to see how turbine engine oil compared. I've seen a few firearms greases in small packages before that reminded me of aerospace products I've loaded into grease guns from buckets, such as Aeroshell 14 and Mobil 28.

[Sa-tevp]

WD-40 is missing,.

Diesel starting fluid?

[igolfat8]

Sa-tevp, You or anyone else, please feel free to mail a small teaspoon sized sample of your lubricant and I will be glad to test it and add it to the list above.

Keep in mind that the Falex test is only ONE test and it tells us nothing about corrosion protection, how well it stays put, ease of clean up, if its a magnet for powder residue, how it performs at temperature extremes, etc...

[Sa-tevp]

Sa-tevp, You or anyone else, please feel free to mail a small teaspoon sized sample of your lubricant and I will be glad to test it and add it to the list above.

Keep in mind that the Falex test is only ONE test and it tells us nothing about corrosion protection, how well it stays put, ease of clean up, if its a magnet for powder residue, how it performs at temperature extremes, etc...

While I like your test methods, unlike firearm lubricants turbine oil comes with spec sheets on what their test results are. Not sure if you are familiar with any of these tests and some of the specifications reference other testing methods.

http://pds.exxonmobil.com/USA-English/Aviation/PDS/GLXXENAVIEMMobil_Jet_Oil_254.aspx

I guess what I am trying to say is some of these products come from areas that play for high stakes and may have applications to our sport, possibly being the best of the best of the best.

[dronning]

A good start on understanding what our guns need, below is from Grant Cunningham's article.  See link in previous post for Grant's recommendations.

- Dave

What makes for a good gun lube?

Believe it or not, and contrary to what a lot of marketing hype will try to tell you, firearms aren’t generally all that hard on lubricants. They encounter intermittent high loads, interspersed with long periods of inaction. This means that the primary lubrication need isn’t hydrodynamic – it’s boundary. What, then, should we be looking for?

Start with a very good boundary lubrication package – that translates to lots of EP/AW additives. We need superb corrosion resistance, along with resistance to oxidation (don’t want those lubricants thickening up during non-use.) We could also use some water resistance and an ability to withstand mild acid and alkali exposure (think perspiration.) Low temperature performance would be icing on the cake, and for a grease we want something that won’t easily separate under load.

We need our oils to migrate. No, I don’t mean to fly south for the winter! Migration is the ability of the lubricant to spread to surrounding and adjacent areas. For instance, let’s say we’re lubricating the shaft on which a hammer pivots; a lubricant with poor migration would just sit where we applied it, and would never get into the space between the hammer hole and the pivot. The net result would be a poorly lubed mechanism. A lube with good migration will succumb to capillary action and snake its way down into that small space, lubricating everything it comes into contact with.

Sounds like migration is just the cat’s meow, right? Not really – there is such a thing as too much. The migration that is so desirable on hammers and triggers isn’t really good on autopistol slides; the lubricant tends to “run off”, or migrates to the holster (or your clothes.) Ever wonder why your autoloader slide goes “dry” while in the holster? Lubricant migration at work. (What, you think it disappeared into thin air?)

What about greases – do we even need them? You bet! I use the General Rule of Lubrication: oil for rotating parts, grease for sliding parts that carry a load. In firearms, grease is most appropriate for any part interaction that has a scraping (aka “shear”) type of action, and will be subjected to pressure or shock. What kinds of parts are we talking about? Slide rails, bolt carriers, and sears – especially double-action sears. (An example of a sliding part that should not be greased is the trigger bow of the 1911 pistol – it carries virtually no load, and is subject to almost no stress; it also is under very light tension, so little that a thickened lubricant could reduce its free movement.)

That’s a pretty good explanation of what we need – is there anything we should avoid? Of course – any product that contains chlorine compounds. These compounds, usually referred to as chlorinated esters, were used as boundary additives for many years. As boundary lubes they actually work pretty well; the problem is that they promote a phenomenon known as “stress corrosion cracking” (SCC). Essentially, SCC creates microscopic pits and cracks that, under heat and pressure, widen to become noticeable cracks – and sometimes, even broken parts!

(One major gun manufacturer actually had barrels fall off of their revolvers. An investigation ensued, and they found that the chlorinated esters used in their machining oils was causing stress cracking in barrel threads. When combined with the gun owners’ use of cleaning and lube compounds containing chlorinated esters, the barrels simply sheared off at the weakest part – the threads. Like most aircraft makers, the company learned to forbid chlorine-carrying compounds on the manufacturing floor, to prevent a recurrence.)

[igolfat8]

Yes, I am familiar with Mobil's catalogs and spec sheets. We are a Tier 1 end user of Exxon-Mobil industrial lubricants. I am not familiar with aircraft lubricants but I noticed many of the specs are similar to some air compressor synthetic oils we use. I suspect they share similarities in base stocks but may differ in additive packages? Many of the ASTM testing methods utilize VERY expensive test equipment and most industries don't have budgets to support internal labs. We do in house testing in our lab but we still utilize an external third party labs on occasion for 2nd opinion confirmation.

[DavidR]

If your interested in seeing this type of testing done google One arm bandit oil tests, hundred's of them on you tube.
Here is amsoil doing their test, many oils and additives advertise using this method.

[DavidR]

Good data for sure but it really leaves me still wondering what's best for guns ?  It does help weed out a few bad performers but the good ones almost all tested read 60+, that doesn't tell me anything other than one may be 61 and another 161? Ive seen these tests done on prolong oil additive and the machine never stopped at all, so it should be off the chart but on this chart its just another 60+.

FALEX Film Strength Test Data:
						Total Gram
					Seconds Before	Weight
Date	Manufacturer	Product description	Common Name / Use	Category	Audible Failure	At Failure
4/28/16	Car Quest	Super Premium  A/C Ester	A/C Ester oil	Oil	4	0
4/28/16	LPS	LPS 1, aerosol	Spray oil	Oil	5	0
4/28/16	Brian Enos's	Slide Glide Lite	Grease / G oil	Grease	6	0
4/28/16	Bel Ray	80W Gear Saver	Motorcycle transmission oil	Oil	7	0
4/28/16	Eezox	Premium synthetic gun care		Gun Oil	7	0
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	XHP222	Grease	Grease	7	0
4/28/16	Fastex	Water proof / EP	Grease	Grease	7	0
4/28/16	Lubri-Kit.com	SFL-O	Gun Oil	Grease	7	0
4/28/16	Lucas	Gun Oil		Gun Oil	7	0
4/28/16	?	G-Max	Grease	Grease	8	0
4/28/16	Brian Enos's	Slide Glide #1	Grease / G oil	Grease	8	0
4/28/16	Klotz	Super Techniplate, 2 cycle oil	2 cycle oil	Oil	8	0
4/28/16	Lucas	Red N Tacky	Grease	Grease	8	0
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	High Temperature	Red synthetic grease	Grease	10	0
4/28/16	Mobil 1	Synthetic, 10W-30	Extended Performance Motor Oil	Oil	11	0
4/28/16	Castrol	Viskogen KL 300	Aerosol synthetic chain lube	Oil	12	0
4/28/16	Falk	Coupling Grease	Grease	Grease	12	0
4/28/16	Lubriplate	White Lithium	Grease	Grease	14	0
4/28/16	Super Slick Slick Stuff	CLP	Aerosol	Oil	15	0
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	SHC 634	Synthetic gear oil	Oil	16	0
4/28/16	Thompson	Linear Lube	Grease	Grease	18	0
4/28/16	Wilson Combat	Ultimate Weapon Lube	Universal Oil	Gun Oil	24	0
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	Vactra #4	Way Oil	Oil	33	0
4/28/16	Royal Purple	Max-Film synthetic	Penetrating lubricant, aerosol	Oil	40	0
4/28/16	Ed's Red	Home made CLP		Gun Oil	50	0
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	600XP-150	Gear Oil	Oil	50	0
4/28/16	Remington	Rem-Oil		Gun Oil	50	0
4/28/16	Balistol	Multipurpose CLP		Gun Oil	60+	218
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	DTE 25	Hydraulic oil	Oil	60+	218
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	Vactra #2	Way Oil	Oil	60+	218
4/28/16	Lubri-Kit.com	FMO-350 AW		Gun Oil	60+	218
4/28/16	Dura Lube	Transmission Treatment	Additive	Oil	60+	436

4/28/16	Hoppe's	#9	Gun oil	Gun Oil	60+	436
4/28/16	Royal Purple	10W-30	Motor Oil	Oil	60+	436
5/23/14	Exxon Mobil	DTE Lite	Air line oil	Oil	60+	654
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	Nuto 68	Hydraulic oil	Oil	60+	654
4/28/16	Exxon Mobil	600 XP-220	Gear Oil	Oil	60+	654
4/28/16	Mobil 1	Synthetic	ATF	Oil	60+	654
5/23/14	Castrol	69510	Lube con w/ moly	Oil	60+	872
5/23/14	Exxon Mobil	Nuto 68	Hydraulic oil	Oil	60+	872
4/28/16	Fastex	EP Chain Lube	FBACCL46EP	Oil	60+	872
4/28/16	Marvel	Mystery Oil		Oil	60+	872
4/28/16	Castrol	Molub-alloy CH22	Aerosol synthetic chain lube	Oil	60+	3052
4/28/16	Duralube	Engine Treatment	Additive	Oil	60+	3052
4/28/16	Fastex	F-FSM-001	Surface Modifier	Oil	60+	3052
4/28/16	Prolong	Engine Treatment	Additive	Oil	60+	3052
5/23/14	DuPont	Chain Saver	Wax based chain lube w/ Teflon	Oil	60+	3940
5/23/14	DuPont	Teflon Non-Stick	Dry film lubricant w/ Teflon	Oil	60+	3940
4/28/16	Fastex	Corrosion Inhibitor	FBACCL	Oil	60+	3940
4/28/16	Shooter's Choice	FP-10	Gun oil	Gun Oil	60+

[jmdavis]

David, 

My problem with the Amsoil video is that they didn't follow a repeatable process in order to get repeatable results. Compare the video to this explanation. 

:1st Test:
A new bearing (position) is used for each run.
The race is polished with 220 sand paper between each run.
Both the bearing and race are cleaned with Brake Clean between runs.
A cue tip is dipped in the test oil and held against the spinning race before the bearing makes contact.
A stop watch timer is used.
After the bearings make contact the cue tip is held on the spinning race for an additional 5 seconds then removed.
Initially no weight is applied to the leverage bar.
When the bearing makes contact with the spinning race the timer is started for the duration of the test.
When the oil film breaks through you hear an audible metal to metal grinding noise.
At that point the timer is stopped and the time recorded.
If the oil film did not break through, the race was allowed to spin for 60 seconds and the test was stopped.
A total of 50 oils and greases have been tested to date.
 
2nd Test:
If the oil exceeded the 60 second test those oils were used for a 2^nd test.
The bearing and race were cleaned per the steps above.
At the 5 second mark weight was added to the leverage bar.
When the film broke through the amount of weight was recorded.
 
The results were ranked by the amount of weight the oil film withstood before audible failure.:

[igolfat8]

Keep in mind that the tests you see on YouTube and elsewhere have the spinning bearing race submerged (constantly wet) in the oil that they are testing. Guns don't run in a submerged bath of oil. They run with only a drop or two of oil here and there. Therefore, I modified my test to only test a single drop of oil placed on the spinning race to more closely replicate how we lube our guns.

All of the oils above would have scored significantly better if I would have tested them in a submerged bath of oil.

Any lube that tested 60 seconds is plenty of protection  (IMO) for a pistol. 

I should also mention that I have tested the Dupont Teflon on barrel and slide bushings and it doesn't hold up. I've done similar testing with Moly lubes and it doesn't perform any better than Teflon. Even though Teflon and Moly scored high on this test they don't adhere well to sliding metal surfaces for any length of time. After a few dozen rounds the bushing scrapes the Teflon and Moly off, down to bare metal so I would not recommend these products for our application. Oil seems to adhere to metal surfaces much better than the two solid barrier lubricants just mentioned.

[igolfat8]

You have to understand the Falex machine and variations in the testing process. If I wanted to sell snake oil I could fudge the test results to make some oils appear to perform better than others. 

Watch the tests, on Youtube closely, and see if they rotate the fixed roller between tests. Once the oil film fails, you have metal to metal contact and a wear scar quickly forms on the fixed roller bearing. If one din't rotate the fixed roller bearing to a virgin position and just added an additive to the oil bath the test results will be compromised. 

They may point out how their miracle wonder additive polishes the wear scar surface but since the wear scar has a larger contact surface the load is spread out over a wider area and now the salesman will divert your attention to watch the amp meter because all of a sudden the amperage is miraculously less than before. Its slight of hand if the audience doesn't know what tell to look for.

I have no dog in this contest nor do I have any financial gain or interest at stake. Just merely sharing some data to see how one product fares against another.

[dronning]

The reason why so many people have their favorite gun lube and swear by them, is so many lubes actually meet the requirements our guns.

While the lube tests are very interesting (thanks igolfat8) as suggested probably aren't a true indicator of performance in our application.

1) pins like the hammer, sear, link need an oil that has some migration properties to get into tight spaces.
2) slides & sears need an oil or grease that will stay put and not migrate, but still thin enough not to inhibit function.

I have, like almost everyone here, a shelf full of lubes.  My "current" choices are based on  "educated" trial and error.  

- Dave

[DavidR]

David, 

My problem with the Amsoil video is that they didn't follow a repeatable process in order to get repeatable results. Compare the video to this explanation. 

:1st Test:
A new bearing (position) is used for each run.
The race is polished with 220 sand paper between each run.
Both the bearing and race are cleaned with Brake Clean between runs.
A cue tip is dipped in the test oil and held against the spinning race before the bearing makes contact.
A stop watch timer is used.
After the bearings make contact the cue tip is held on the spinning race for an additional 5 seconds then removed.
Initially no weight is applied to the leverage bar.
When the bearing makes contact with the spinning race the timer is started for the duration of the test.
When the oil film breaks through you hear an audible metal to metal grinding noise.
At that point the timer is stopped and the time recorded.
If the oil film did not break through, the race was allowed to spin for 60 seconds and the test was stopped.
A total of 50 oils and greases have been tested to date.
 
2nd Test:
If the oil exceeded the 60 second test those oils were used for a 2^nd test.
The bearing and race were cleaned per the steps above.
At the 5 second mark weight was added to the leverage bar.
When the film broke through the amount of weight was recorded.
 
The results were ranked by the amount of weight the oil film withstood before audible failure.:

I just posted the amsoil as a example, Unfortunately that's why they call the machine the one armed bandit, many users using many methods to promote their products in the online world most consider these tests very untrustworthy. The answer to what will do the best job on your gun is in your testing it for your application.

[LenV]

Anyone still use LSA oil? A little old school but it sure works good in any temperature.

[jmdavis]

Anyone still use LSA oil? A little old school but it sure works good in any temperature.

I do for AR, I bought several gallons a few years ago. But it's pretty thick for my 1911.

[jglenn21]

igolfat8 really summed it up.. do we really need an oil that will work at -45 and +450 degrees... really...

most of the better oils are way overkill for a pistol.. as long as it doesn't separate and works in your gun you most likely are fine...

 I use a <0 weight racing oil that is way way overkill for a 1911 but I have it left over from my engine building and racing days so I use it.. and it works great... It's darn near thinner than Kroil. I figure if it kept a Yamaha 1200 in one piece for two years at 12,000 RPM it just might work..

[jmdavis]

I stripped the 1911's last night, throughly cleaned them and then relubed with the Bob Marvel Custom Oil. It is slick stuff and  flows really well. I don't think I will have any problems with the wad gun and this lube. 

I bought the last 3 bottles of Marvel Branded oil that Top Gun had. After that I will have to use the Progold FSR-7 version.

[DavidR]

Anyone still use LSA oil? A little old school but it sure works good in any temperature.

Great stuff, but too thick for slide on my gun , and if you put it on your sear/hammer it will drop the hold weight a half a pound! great for lugs,front bushing.

[Aprilian]

If I look at the color change of the oil in the areas which are not exposed to combustion byproducts or environmental dirt, should a good product be the same color as when applied?

It seems like the oil in those areas is always black when removed with a q-tip which I take to be bluing and metal being worn from the mating surfaces.   The shiny section on pivot pins would seem to confirm that.

My reason for asking is DavidR's comment;

The answer to what will do the best job on your gun is in your testing it for your application.

How do we test it?   None of us probably have electron microscopes to see which product results in the least wear and very few products would yield a catastrophic failure.   I used a grease pencil recently which yielded FTE's and FTF's so that was a dramatic illustration of the wrong product for that application (slowing movement too much), but what else should we test to determine the right product from a batch of similar items?

I wonder if this is similar to all the motor oil threads on car and motorcycle forums, again since catastrophic failures can't be tied to a particular product used nor is accelerated component wear found immediately upon switching products.

[DavidR]

If I look at the color change of the oil in the areas which are not exposed to combustion byproducts or environmental dirt, should a good product be the same color as when applied?

It seems like the oil in those areas is always black when removed with a q-tip which I take to be bluing and metal being worn from the mating surfaces.   The shiny section on pivot pins would seem to confirm that.

My reason for asking is DavidR's comment;

The answer to what will do the best job on your gun is in your testing it for your application.

How do we test it?   None of us probably have electron microscopes to see which product results in the least wear and very few products would yield a catastrophic failure.   I used a grease pencil recently which yielded FTE's and FTF's so that was a dramatic illustration of the wrong product for that application (slowing movement too much), but what else should we test to determine the right product from a batch of similar items?

I wonder if this is similar to all the motor oil threads on car and motorcycle forums, again since catastrophic failures can't be tied to a particular product used nor is accelerated component wear found immediately upon switching products.

First, oil on the gun will turn black if using dirty powder like bullseye or many others, gases from ignition mix with it in many areas, also some oils separate and leave different color component's, these are the worst oils tetra is one that is real bad to separate. as testing... the only machine I use to test is my gun, id say 98% of guns will work well with most any good gun oil, a few like my Mike Curtis custom are so well fitted there is minimal room for oil and it has to be very slick and remain that way thru a match. For this gun Gun Slick Ultra does that and I can shoot CF and 45 with it with no binding issues. I have other guns that work fine on many oils.

[igolfat8]

Has anyone used Superlube Synthetic greases? I just tested two SL greases today along with a few more oils. The Superlube High Temp EP grease has the highest numbers of any grease I have tested to date. Its pretty impressive.

   

Super Lube	Synthetic	with Syncolon (PTFE)	Grease	60+	1090
Super Lube	Synthetic, High Temp,	with Syncolon (PTFE)	Grease	60+	2398

I will update the thread in about a week with more test results.

[DavidR]

I use super lube on my loading presses its good stuff too thick imo for much on a 1911.

[SSgtG]

I've used Marvels Mystery Oil in my 1911s for years now. Here in Iowa it can be over 100 degrees in the summer shooting season and well below zero during winter indoor season. It's been the only oil that has never given me issues. I shoot the gun fairly wet and it's always easy to clean. BTW, I use Gunzilla as my go to cleaner/protector. It is also a lubricant as well. However, it's largely unscented so there is a bottle of Hoppes on the bench purely for nostalgia reasons.

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